Neverwinter Nights 2/Mask of the Betrayer/Storm of Zephir

[frogbeastegg]

There's no current thread, and given the large number of RPG fans here we should have one, surely? Considering the release of the new expansion.

It appears the ugly duckling has turned into one of those white birds only the Queen is allowed to eat.

Over the last few months I've been experiencing some nostalgia for the old Infinity Engine RPGs. Rather than reinstalling Baldur's Gate 2 and trying to get it to work acceptably on my modern PC I have decided to give NWN2 another go. I place the blame Kek's - and others' - insistence it's not terrible any more. Well, that and my remembering that I never managed to get BG2 working last time I tried.

I've got both expansion packs, and I intend to start with the original campaign. AD&D character creation being a blind spot of mine (dyslexic + numbers, stats and formulae = disaster), my character is going to use the beginner's cleric template I found on the NWN2 wiki. It's the closest I could find to the type of character I'd like to play.

Hehe, shouldn't be hard for the game to gain a better verdict from me than the first time I played it. All it needs to do is run at more than 2FPS, enable me to use settings above the very lowest on the PC I nicknamed "froggy's beast", not crash constantly, and not fall prey to scripting errors which prevent me getting past the ultra-twee village fair tutorial thingy.

[Kekvit Irae]

Storm of Zephir

Zephir? Never heard of it.
Zehir is the new god of Yuan-ti. The SoZ expansion basically paves the way for 4th edition, as Zehir is the CE god in the Player's Handbook.

If you want to start a newbie character to play around with without having to muck around with skills and such, said above template is definitely NOT suggested. Pretty much anything that multiclasses and has levels in Rogue are going to give you a dyslexic nightmare.

My suggestion is play a straight Favored Soul. They are like Clerics who receive and cast spells just like a Sorcerer (and uses Charisma for bonus spells and max spell level, AND Wisdom for save DC), they receive Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (something normally reserved for Fighters only) for free, and they get resistance to chosen elemental types. Favored Souls are the only class where picking your deity is a tactical choice, rather than just fluff like Clerics. You only get the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in your god's favored weapon. I personally prefer any god that has Longsword or Greatsword.
The only downside is that they are NOT Clerics or Fighters. They don't get Turn Undead, domains, heavy armor, or high base attack bonus. But if you grab yourself a mithral full plate, you won't need heavy armor, and the massive amount of healing spells you'll be casting more than makes up for the lack of domains and Turn Undead. If you really, REALLY want those domains, grab a single level of Cleric and continue on with Favored Soul (make sure you're a Human, Half-Elf, or Grey Orc since they have the required favored classes).

Oh, and the Yuan-ti Pureblood race is very, VERY delicious! Same ECL as the Drow, but no negatives to stats or any other disadvantages.

[frogbeastegg]

I blame the fancy writing on the box.

I find that build attractive because it tells me what point to put where, at which levels to multiclass, and so on. It's the forest of numbers effect which causes AD&D to act like a spell of frog confusion + 3. Character stats, derived skills, the other skills, bonuses, saving and attacking throws ... Add in descriptions like "does 6D4 for 5 rounds", and the need to work out the optimal points to shift from one class to another and/or invest in feats and/or boost other skills and my poor little eyes are spinning like a pinwheel.

The creation of a four person party for storm of that dude () is proving near impossible for me. I know I need a mage/thief/tank/healer combo. There are way too many possibilities to choose from! I have no particular plans for my Storm party, other than my usual guidelines. They would be:

Preferably human characters, or very close to human ones. Playing as orcs, halflings and the like make me feel like a reject from lord of the rings. Strictly no elves because I loathe the pretentious treehuggers. I'm open to playing as tieflings, half angels, half demons and such. Gnomes belong on a garden lawn.

Powerful builds so I don't die every 10 seconds. I have to use many skills to figure out what they do. School of hard knocks, most literally. "1d5 + 1 per 3rd level means ....? :casts, watches it barely dent an orc, which then heads over and thumps the mage in the head with a giant club:"

Good aligned, so no blackguards etc.

I like to have at least one guy in shiny plate armour with a sword and shield. Think knight. Not a paladin because they always turn out feeble for reasons which may or may not be related to my hopelessness. It's a class I have used repeatedly since BG1, and never been impressed with. They also tend to be smug self-righteous annoyances.

If I have to play a mage then I want to blast things into itty-bitty pieces with my awesome power, not wave my hands about and create a shadow of myself so I get hit in the head half as often. My mage needs a good degree of combat survivability because he's going to spend half the game being thumped in the head due to my inability to work out which spell will blast things into itty-bitty pieces. Mage in armour with a sword is a particular style I would like. Fireball, fireball, slice head, win. Perfect.

Thieves. I recognise the necessity of spotting traps, picking locks, etc, but it's a class I have never got on with. They die all the time. Sneak attacking and such is fine in theory. In (Infinity Engine) practise the rest of my party usually charges in and ruins it, or the thief ends up isolated and slaughtered after the attack completes. AFAIK there are some combat rogue types, so maybe one of those would be suitable?

The favoured soul outline above sounds reasonable for the healer/secondary tank. Um, if I knew how to build it

It would be nice to have a red dragon disciple there. I have good memories of using one in hordes of underdark. Mmmm, he and Deekin slaughtered everything in sight.

When it comes to weapons for anyone I have a definite bias towards swords. Doesn't matter what sort. Hitting people with varying types of stick lacks that certain something.

[Kekvit Irae]

A Favored Soul build is easy.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Race: My personal favorite is always the Human. Extra feat at first level and extra skill points are always delicious. Strongheart Halflings get the extra feat, but they are small and will not be able to wield large weapons, and use medium weapons in two hands.

Stats: 14 str, 12-14 dex, 10-12 con, 14-16 int (if you want more skill points), 8 wis (because you are not an offensive caster, you don't need high DCs), and 16 cha.

Skills: Max out Diplomacy, Lore, Concentration, and Spellcraft. Any skill points left over should go into whatever you feel like taking. Craft: Armor is good, since you'll need a Mithral Fullplate to gain full advantage of the Medium Armor of the FS. When leveling up, don't pick anything else but your maxed skills unless you have the skill points to burn (or you have Able Learner feat).

God: Your choice. Either take one with longsword (so you can use a shield for higher AC) or one with greatsword (for higher damage output).

Feats: If you picked human, Luck of Heroes (saves are nothing to a FS; you need the AC more) and one of your choice. I'd go with either Toughness for more hitpoints, Augment Healing for better healing spells, or Able Learner if you want to put ranks into cross-class skills without paying the extra cost.

Leveling up:
3 - You get your Weapon Focus for free.
3 - Grab either Extend Spell (for your buffs), Dodge, or Power Attack.
4 - +1cha
5 - You get your energy resistance 10 in your choice of elements. I'd pick either Cold or Fire, as they are more common.
6 - Cleave (if Power Attack was taken), or any other of your choice.
8 - +1cha

From that point onward, you should have a feel for your character.

If you want to make a Favored Soul/Stormlord build, same as above except with a few modifications:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The first two stat points you get at 4th and 8th level should go into strength, and then the rest into charisma.

Your deity HAS to be one of the following: Hoar, Lurue, Talos, Gruumsh (Grey Orcs, Half Orcs), Sseth (Yuan-ti Purebloods), Baervan Wildwanderer (Gnomes), or Angarradh (Elves).

If playing a Human, Luck of Heroes and Toughness. If not, take Toughness. You will need to get Great Fortitude when you level up to 3rd level, and your Weapon Focus (Spear) will come naturally to a Favored Soul.

DO NOT TAKE ELECTRICAL RESISTANCE AS YOUR FAVORED SOUL'S CHOICE. You will get this as a Stormlord, as well as immunity later on.

Once you get to the point where you can cast 3rd level divine spells, switch over to Stormlord. Now enjoy the benefits of having an At Will +1d6 electrical damage to all your spear attacks (increases as you level up in Stormlord), and all your spears count as a +1 weapon (again, increases as you level up) which stacks with your weapon's magical enhancement bonus.

[TevashSzat]

I had a fairly intricate build worked out. Basically, my aim was a wizard that could do well in close quarter fighting.

IIRC, it ended up being

10 Wizard
10 Blackguard
10 Duelist

Basically, with 10 Wizard/Blackguard, I could cast all wizard spells. I pumped up Int which allows for higher spell dcs and synergizes with Duelist, giving me +1 AC for every Int + modifier. Basically, I ended up being a wizard that could tank b/c of parry mode.

The feats are really tricky since you have to balance Duelist feats with Wizard ones, but everything worked out in the end. If you need it, i can try to remember a more exact version of what I did

[frogbeastegg]

I started a game with the build I linked to, more to get a feel for the game than anything else. I've played far enough to reach the first fort. Much better than the first time I played it! The game feels like a worthy entry into the Bioware AD&D 'series' now, and so far it's more absorbing than the original NWN.

Thanks for the build suggestions. I'm level 4 with that cleric template and I'm not quite liking it. It's partly due to the spear; it's slow, rubbish, and I spend most of my time missing. I'm not sure any form of cleric is for me. They are a bit too ... not enough swords and fireballs of deadly death The two most enjoyable AD&D characters I have played were my kensai/mage from BG2 and my fighter/sorceror/red dragon disciple from HoU. Both characters were hard to hit, ploughed through mobs with fancy swordwork, then blasted tough guys with fireballs.

I'm looking at the eldritch knight and thinking that might be better. Can anyone recommend a strong build with that? I have seen several online and none appeal to me, since they rely on dual wielding scythes and other craziness.

I have Tony K's AI hack. Which settings are people using for close combat fighters? I've played with all the obvious ones and nothing stops the dwarf from sprinting ahead into a mob. Sometimes my other two characters get there in time to save him, others not. He just got my entire party wiped out by singlehandedly charging a massive bandit camp.

[Kekvit Irae]

Thanks for the build suggestions. I'm level 4 with that cleric template and I'm not quite liking it. It's partly due to the spear; it's slow, rubbish, and I spend most of my time missing. I'm not sure any form of cleric is for me. They are a bit too ... not enough swords and fireballs of deadly death The two most enjoyable AD&D characters I have played were my kensai/mage from BG2 and my fighter/sorceror/red dragon disciple from HoU. Both characters were hard to hit, ploughed through mobs with fancy swordwork, then blasted tough guys with fireballs.

If you're looking into a "waggle your finger and they die" type of character, look no further than the Warlock. Their damage output sucks- same progression as a Rogue's sneak attack, +1d6 every two levels, as opposed to a fireball which is 1d6 every level- but their main advantage is they have UNLIMITED spells. Seriously, you will NEVER run out. The d6 hit points and ability to wear up to Medium Armor (with the right feats) without arcane failure makes them a very good choice for survivability. Once you hit 10th level or so, you'll be outdamaging any wizard or sorcerer for the sheer fact that you never need to rest once (except for regaining lost hit points).
You can also modify your Elderitch Blast with both a Blast Shape and Blast Type, which means your lousy 1d6/2lvls can possibly turn into a 1d6/2lvls +2d6 fire damage for several rounds vs every enemy within 10 feet. Ouch. My personal favorite is Noxious Blast, which is undoubtably the most broken spell in the game in terms of balance issues. Any enemy hit by your blast must make a Fort save or be dazed for 10 rounds. TEN ROUNDS. Combine that with Elderitch Chain (modifies your blast to be like Chain Lightning) and Weapon Focus: Ranged Touch Attack (RTA's ALWAYS critical on a 20, no need to roll to confirm it) and Improved Critical: Ranged Touch Attack (ALWAYS crit on a 19-20), and you have a recipe for pain.

I have Tony K's AI hack. Which settings are people using for close combat fighters? I've played with all the obvious ones and nothing stops the dwarf from sprinting ahead into a mob. Sometimes my other two characters get there in time to save him, others not. He just got my entire party wiped out by singlehandedly charging a massive bandit camp.

Use the voice commands. V-E-E sets your party into Follow mode. They won't attack unless you command them otherwise, for when you're near a hallway of traps and don't want Khelgar doing something stupid like charging in and setting every trap off. V-W-E sets Attack mode.
Muck around with the behavior settings until you find the right combination. Most notably, Switch To Melee Range and Use Melee Attacks (I turn them off for people like Qara when I would rather have them cast spells than attack).

[Crandaeolon]

Warlock is okay power-wise, but it's a terribly boring class to play - using the same few skills over and over and over and over again gets stale very fast. I'd say that selecting a Warlock as my PC was the single most important thing that turned me off NWN2, haven't been able to touch it since.

Besides, the 20 second nap that recharges everything isn't that much of a limitation for the other caster classes...

[frogbeastegg]

I'm wondering about a swashbuckler/wizard/eldritch knight. Uh oh. Brace yourself for a froggy effort at character design.

Wizards need high int. High dex will keep me alive. Swashbuckers can add int to their attack rolls, converting it into a stat which powers both physical and magical killing. High dex benefits them too, and they are aimed at being hard to hit and have skills to support this. Swashbuckler has a higher HP base too, so a few levels in that will enable me to take more than one hit. Taking these two classes together will allow me to naturally fill the requirements for eldritch knight, a prestige class which will turn me into a sword-waving fireball-blasting dealer of death.

Because the classes focus on the same stats I will be able to pump int and dex sky high. Um, other than that I'm not sure what else to spend points on. Constitution and a bit of strength?

Skills wise, most of the ones I want appear to be covered naturally by these classes: diplomacy, tumble, concentration, spellcraft. I hear use magical device is one no one should be without; neither class has that one so I'd have to sink points into it or pick up that feat which allows all skills to be treated as class skills. Is UMD worth that? It would have to be pretty good to justify the wastage involved in either method of pumping it. There are so many skills it's hard to tell what I actually need. High int should give me a good amount of points to play with.

As far as the level split goes, it looks like it is the full 10 with eldritch knight or you lose the better benefits. I've seen it said again and again that in such a scenario wizard needs to reach 8 to give me a total caster level of 18 to open up the highest level spells. That means 2 levels left over for swashbuckler, or 12 if I take the character across into Mask. Level 3 is where the swashbuckler gets the feat which adds int onto attack calculations, so I definitely need level 3 ASAP or there's no point in taking the class. If I'm missing a single wizard level at the end of the original campaign it's not the end of the world, is it?

Feats are harder. Martial weapons is a must for eldritch knight, and will be supplied for free by swashbuckler. I'd use a rapier, so I guess some of those weapon focus type feats? Other than that, no idea.

It should be simple to put together. 3 levels of swashbuckler, followed by as many wizard levels as I need to open up eldtritch knight, 10 levels of that and then back to finish off wizard.

In terms of equipment, it looks like I would be limited to light armour or robe types in order to keep the swashbuckler bonuses and the maximum dex bonus. No shields, or again I lose bonuses. As mentioned, I'd use a rapier. There are some decent ones, right?

I don't know if choosing a spell specialisation is a good idea, or if I should remain a generalist.

Race ... I'd prefer human. I wouldn't be crippling myself by not taking air gensai instead? That race has better bonuses for this design. However the -2 charisma could hurt in the campaign since I want to be a smart talkative type.

Someone please point out the incredibly obvious thing I have missed which makes this entire idea a bad one. Should I have managed to create something viable, a little help with my skills, stats and feats, please?

Rapier. Fireballs. One of those white shirts with the big baggy sleeves. Sounds fun.

[TevashSzat]

I had a fairly intricate build worked out. Basically, my aim was a wizard that could do well in close quarter fighting.

IIRC, it ended up being

10 Wizard
10 Blackguard
10 Duelist

Basically, with 10 Wizard/Blackguard, I could cast all wizard spells. I pumped up Int which allows for higher spell dcs and synergizes with Duelist, giving me +1 AC for every Int + modifier. Basically, I ended up being a wizard that could tank b/c of parry mode.

The feats are really tricky since you have to balance Duelist feats with Wizard ones, but everything worked out in the end. If you need it, i can try to remember a more exact version of what I did

Wow.....I just realized how much of an idiot I am. How the heck did I write Blackguard when I meant eldricht knight????

Basically, your build with swashbuckler is a more offensive (melee wise) but less defensive build for me. Its up to you, but I prefer Duelist to Swashbuckler. The damage difference can be offset by the flourish that you get from Duelist.

Anyways, going for rapier means that you NEED weapon finesse. It will let you use your dex bonus to attack modifiers instead of str, but you won't get any +dmg.

[frogbeastegg]

Use the voice commands. V-E-E sets your party into Follow mode. They won't attack unless you command them otherwise, for when you're near a hallway of traps and don't want Khelgar doing something stupid like charging in and setting every trap off. V-W-E sets Attack mode.

For that you earn a cookie. A chocolate chip one. Two simple commands and suddenly my party has a survival urge! Not only that, they are pretty smart in their skill usage and weapon swapping.

Wow.....I just realized how much of an idiot I am. How the heck did I write Blackguard when I meant eldricht knight????

I did wonder why you posted a blackguard in response to a request for good aligned builds

It looks like a nice, reliable, easy to understand build. I'd use it if it weren't for my total inability to survive the initial levels as a plain wizard. Hehe, I'm so hopeless I managed to die repeatedly as that cleric!



I have started the swashbuckler/wizard/eldritch knight I wondered about. It's a case of making it up as I go along and hoping it turns out ok.

I went with 18 int, 16 (or was that 17?) dex, 12 con, 10 str. I'll just keep dumping extra points into int until I reach 19, then pump dex. Feat-wise, I have luck of the heroes, able learner, weapon finesse and whatever the remaining class freebies are. I have purchased a +1rapier from the blacksmith at the fort, found some boots which add to tumble, and some gloves of greater concentration. Hehe, still no idea what I'm doing with feats; I'm picking whatever seems most useful when offered. I did 3 levels of swashbuckler, and I have gained my second wizard level. The build is handling with ease the areas where I struggled with the cleric.

The swashbuckler part of the build has proven to be very strong. I'm able to handle most fights without needing to buff or blast with spells. I'm hitting more often and killing far more than the spear using cleric. In tough fights I buff up with shield and nothing manages to hurt me. Magic missiles and the ranged damage cantrips provide a bit of ranged punch. Being a level 2 wizard I don't have many uses or much damage, so they are more of a toy than a tool. If a battle gets a bit rough I can turn on combat finesse and parry modes, and sit there blocking most incoming attacks whilst my party do the killing.

With this character the game's proving to be quite absorbing.

[TevashSzat]

As for survival, one word: stoneskin

Basically, once you get that, you're set and can survive fights. By the time stoneskin wears off, its usually time for your party to rest anyways

[Kekvit Irae]

As for survival, one word: stoneskin

Basically, once you get that, you're set and can survive fights. By the time stoneskin wears off, its usually time for your party to rest anyways

Taking all five Fey Heritage feats instead is a wonderful choice as well. 5/Cold Iron damage reduction is nothing to sneeze at, especially when combined with other feats/class abilities that grant damage reduction (19th level Warlock with all Fey Heritage feats gets 10/Cold Iron damage reduction, making the Warlock tank almost as well as a Fighter).
And Eldritch Knight needs damage reduction to stay alive, since the whole PrC is a waste except for the Rogue hitpoints and Fighter BAB.

[caravel]

I haven't played any of the Bioware games since the days of BG, IWD, BG2 and Torment. Is NWN any good? I've seen it on the buget label and thought about picking it up.

[Kekvit Irae]

NWN1 is only enjoyable with both expansions (the original campaign really sucks, but the expansion campaigns are pure love).
NWN2 is enjoyable with or without the expansions, just be sure to install the player-made AI modifications.

[johnhughthom]

I'm contemplating giving NWN2 another go, played it when it came out and quite enjoyed it but got very frustrated with the companion AI. I'm not sure how far I got in the game but I played it for quite a while, I hadn't got the stronghold yet. I was attacking some sort of thief den when I got totally ****ed off. I was wondering if anybody could tell me how far into the game I was (not a lot of info to go on I know) as I don't think I'll bother unless I was less than half way through.

[Vladimir]

I'm contemplating giving NWN2 another go, played it when it came out and quite enjoyed it but got very frustrated with the companion AI. I'm not sure how far I got in the game but I played it for quite a while, I hadn't got the stronghold yet. I was attacking some sort of thief den when I got totally ****ed off. I was wondering if anybody could tell me how far into the game I was (not a lot of info to go on I know) as I don't think I'll bother unless I was less than half way through.

NWN2 is enjoyable with or without the expansions, just be sure to install the player-made AI modifications.

Look up.

[johnhughthom]

I was actually asking if anybody had an idea how far through the game I was, I had read about the AI mods which was what put me in mind to give it another go. I don't want to tread through the same stuff again only to find I was close to the end.

[TevashSzat]

I'm contemplating giving NWN2 another go, played it when it came out and quite enjoyed it but got very frustrated with the companion AI. I'm not sure how far I got in the game but I played it for quite a while, I hadn't got the stronghold yet. I was attacking some sort of thief den when I got totally ****ed off. I was wondering if anybody could tell me how far into the game I was (not a lot of info to go on I know) as I don't think I'll bother unless I was less than half way through.

You are less than a quarter way through. The campaign is huge so you still probably got at least 20 hours of new stuff left

[johnhughthom]

That's great, thanks a lot TevashSzat. My weekend is sorted now.

[Meldarion]

Have they fixed the bug that prevented warlocks not being able to overcome spell resistance yet? If they haven't avoid them. When building a mage character, if its for the AI use a wizard.

Favoured Souls - Superb class, best healers in the game and can deal as much melee damage as fighters with the right feat & spell selection.

[Kekvit Irae]

Have they fixed the bug that prevented warlocks not being able to overcome spell resistance yet? If they haven't avoid them. When building a mage character, if its for the AI use a wizard.

As far as I know, I haven't had (much) trouble overcoming spell resistance when playing a Warlock. Sometimes the spells get through, sometimes they get resisted.

[Fixiwee]

Btw, do we have a generel D&D thread? I'd like to tell you of some hillarious RPG stuff that happend with my group latley

[Kekvit Irae]

Btw, do we have a generel D&D thread? I'd like to tell you of some hillarious RPG stuff that happend with my group latley

The powers that be have deemed this forum unworthy of classic gaming.

[Vladimir]

The powers that be have deemed this forum unworthy of classic gaming.

Pfft. It should be fine as long as it is phrased like it happened in game. A little artistic license is good.

[frogbeastegg]

What I said was, the arena is intended solely for video games however

On the very rare occasions someone has posted a topic on a traditional game I've tended let it pass because there is no correct forum for those topics. They show up in the front room too, and fit there equally well

The post is still there for anyone who doubts.

Here or the front room. Just start a new topic. If anyone wants to delve into artistic license then the Mead Hall would also make a good home.

[Lemur]

So what's the consensus? Is Storm of Zephir worth the time and bother? I almost always roll up some variation on a dwarven fighter, can't say why, it's hardly the most advantageous character in a min/max sense. I just have a thing for squat, vicious, loveable killers. Note that I own a bulldog and a pug.

So, should I make time in my schedule to try this addition or not?

[frogbeastegg]

I couldn't say. I'm still working my way through the mammoth main campaign.

If it's any help I've seen quite a bit of discussion of it on the other two gaming forums I read, and it's 95% positive.

[Meneldil]

I've recently seen a friend playing NWN2, and it immediatly reminded me of the good old BG2 days, so I'm considering giving it a shot. The thing is, I just bought M2TW+Kingdoms, I am considering getting a few old SNES games on my room mate's WII (Secret of Evermore was such a great game, not sure it's available on WII thou), as well as DoW2 when it's released (even though I uninstalled the beta because I think it was bad).

So well, is the game anything like BG2 ? I played NWN back then, and thought it was just plain bad. From the look of things, NWN2 is much better, but will it kick me in the nuts the way BG did ?

[TevashSzat]

I've recently seen a friend playing NWN2, and it immediatly reminded me of the good old BG2 days, so I'm considering giving it a shot. The thing is, I just bought M2TW+Kingdoms, I am considering getting a few old SNES games on my room mate's WII (Secret of Evermore was such a great game, not sure it's available on WII thou), as well as DoW2 when it's released (even though I uninstalled the beta because I think it was bad).

So well, is the game anything like BG2 ? I played NWN back then, and thought it was just plain bad. From the look of things, NWN2 is much better, but will it kick me in the nuts the way BG did ?

I've tried playing BG2 some times before, but never really got into it because the bad graphics and old school interface just drove me insane.

What do you mean by "kick me in the nuts?"

If you mean really hard, then I have to say that the orginal campaign isn't that hard at all unless you turn up the difficulty and don't really plan your character out.

The MotB campaign, however, can be really tough especially if your character isn't really optimized. I remember that huge fight outside the city took me around 10 reloads to finally beat because so many things were all happening at once.