Successor State + Carthage 'What If?' Question

[Subotan]

All the Romance languages would probably have been replaced with variants of Punic, save Romanian, which would probably be a variant of Dacian/Magyar/Slavic.
More importantly, would Christianity have arisen? It's debatable as to whether the Carthaginians would have crucified Jesus (If we presume he existed of course), or even if they would have reached Judea. Also, Christianity may not have taken off in the same way that it did with the Romans, and considering Islam is a direct reaction to the deviation of Christianity from Jewish monotheism, in that the Trinity was designed to appeal to Roman Pagans, we would probably all be sacrificing babies OR praying to Ahura Mazda every Sunday.

[Hax]

1. By the start date, was there any possibility of either the Ptolemies, the Maks, or the Seleucids gaining the thrones of the other two and reforming Alexander's empire. If so, what would they key points have been.

1) I don't think the Ptolemies could have done such a thing. They were constantly plagued with rebellions in Egypt and were thus unable to subjugate other lands.

Makedonia is another question, and I'm unsure on that.

I think that the Seleucid Empire may just have been able to do such a thing. Magnesia was a turning point here. If Antiochos III was able to defeat the Romans at Magnesia, he would have most likely subjugated Hellas afterwards. Then, should he have died (and Antiochus IV would come to the throne), he would have subjugated Egypt, there was nobody to draw any funny circles around him and then they would have been very, very close to reconquering Alexandros' realm.

Maybe abou can tell you more.

[Subotan]

I think the other big "what if" question was if Hero of Alexandria's steam engine, or "Aeolipile", had been noticed, and it's practicality been put into practice 1700 years before the Industrial Revolution. The difference in human history it would have made makes my mouth water; a steam powered Roman Empire...
But of course, as Cambyses said, these are merely diversions from real history, but bloody interesting diversions at that.

[||Lz3||]

Another, what if Alexander hadn't died so young?

[Tellos Athenaios]

It would not have been very likely. People seem to forget that the concept of 'machine-made, mass produced goods/ware' predates the Industrial Revolution and that the major factors which propelled what became known as the "Industrial revolution" do not seem to have been in existance way back then. I mean both the [British] Agricultural and the Scientific Revolution and their direct consequences.

[Subotan]

Unless the steam engine accelerated by the development of those concepts, and the wealth of Egypt could easily have fuelled such developments. Coupled with Archimede's steam-powered gun, a steampunk Romani Empire wouldn't have been impossible, and might have repelled the German migrations...
Yum. It makes me hungry thinking about it.

[Watchman]

The usual period solution to a demand to increase production seems to have been to throw more workers at it, though. Easy access to lots of slaves (or just cheap labour) tends to do that.

Plus, there's the question of fuel. Teh energy issue. Steam engine is worth its weight in scrap metal if you don't have something to burn in it, in practice meaning wood and coal. Neither of which the Mediterranean region was all that blessed with, AFAIK...
Have fun making primitive steam power cost-efficient (which is something of an absolute precondition for it becoming a factor in the economy rather than mere curiosity) in that situation. Heck, I doubt if period metallurgy was up to the task either - do recall that by the time Europeans started dabbling in proto-industrial production techniques around the Late Middle Ages or so (using water power), they had some rather massively more advanced metalworking know-how to "build the tools to build the tools" with.

[Subotan]

The usual period solution to a demand to increase production seems to have been to throw more workers at it, though. Easy access to lots of slaves (or just cheap labour) tends to do that.

But there was a limit to the amount of slaves that could be employed, as they required food, they were expensive, and most importantly, they needed guarding. With a steam engine, you don't have that third problem, something which ancient nobles might have seen.

Plus, there's the question of fuel. Teh energy issue. Steam engine is worth its weight in scrap metal if you don't have something to burn in it, in practice meaning wood and coal. Neither of which the Mediterranean region was all that blessed with, AFAIK...

Indeed, but Gaul had forests, Britannia had coal, and Germania had lots of forest.

Have fun making primitive steam power cost-efficient (which is something of an absolute precondition for it becoming a factor in the economy rather than mere curiosity) in that situation.

It depends on the location. Arabia? Of course not. Germania? You're surrounded by fuel.

Heck, I doubt if period metallurgy was up to the task either - do recall that by the time Europeans started dabbling in proto-industrial production techniques around the Late Middle Ages or so (using water power), they had some rather massively more advanced metalworking know-how to "build the tools to build the tools" with.

I've been thinking about it, and I think that would have proved to be the biggest obstacle. It depends on the nature of the engine, but I don't we'd have seen massive Romani liners/steam tanks in the first century or two. However, if people had realised the potential behind steam power, they might have been inspired to experiment with metallurgy techniques, and certainly, had the Empire as a whole realised that, then I think technology could have advanced quite quickly.

[Watchman]

But there was a limit to the amount of slaves that could be employed, as they required food, they were expensive, and most importantly, they needed guarding. With a steam engine, you don't have that third problem, something which ancient nobles might have seen.

...except all that and then some applies to the people who run the machines as well. Not only do you still need the blue-collar grunts to do the heavy lifting; you also have the engineers, technicians and whatever who keep the gadgets operational - and, not being exactly easy to replace, the latter can readily ask for some pretty salty wages and perks indeed...

Indeed, but Gaul had forests, Britannia had coal, and Germania had lots of forest.
---
It depends on the location. Arabia? Of course not. Germania? You're surrounded by fuel.

And all those are in the periphery insofar as the Med - the true heartland of the Classical civilisations - is concerned; Germany indeed was pretty much a no-go anyway, as it couldn't even produce enough of a consumables surplus to allow the Romans to permanently garrison an army there (and, hence, have a realistic shot at conquering it).

Wanna start adding the shipping costs to the fuel bill ? That's not going to make it any more attractive to thinkers in the Mediterranean metropolises, all the more so as rather expensively imported wood was already direly needed for God knows how many other things...

I've been thinking about it, and I think that would have proved to be the biggest obstacle. It depends on the nature of the engine, but I don't we'd have seen massive Romani liners/steam tanks in the first century or two. However, if people had realised the potential behind steam power, they might have been inspired to experiment with metallurgy techniques, and certainly, had the Empire as a whole realised that, then I think technology could have advanced quite quickly.

Uh-huh. What you're describing is more or less the "scientific principle" paradigm of problem-solving. Too bad it doesn't actually work that neatly IRL, and moreover lay well over a millenia in the future during the heydays of Rome...
We're not talking about Civilization here; people didn't just sit down and go "hey we need better metallurgy, let's invent it - oughta take a century or two"; plus, what do you think the High-Late Medieval breakthroughs in metal reduction techniques, furnace construction, actual smithwork etc. were the product of if not millenia of continuous trial-and-error developement and hands-on experimentation ? And that was a long stretch of busy centuries indeed from where the Romans stood, with no small amount of helpful imported influences to boot which AFAIK were yet to be accessible in Antiquity.

[Subotan]

...except all that and then some applies to the people who run the machines as well. Not only do you still need the blue-collar grunts to do the heavy lifting; you also have the engineers, technicians and whatever who keep the gadgets operational - and, not being exactly easy to replace, the latter can readily ask for some pretty salty wages and perks indeed...

Why get 100 slaves to do the work when you can have 5 machines running, with two slaves for each to set the things up, and two engineers to keep them going. (That's just a hypothesised situation btw) Even if the engineers demanded relatively high wages, it would still be cheaper than feeding 100 slaves, and was certainly cheaper than guarding them. And as people realise that being an engineer is profitable, more people would become engineers, driving the price for engineers down.

I'll have a shot at answering the rest tomorrow.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yeah, by the time the Industrial Revolution really took off -- 2nd-3rd quarter of the 19th century onwards and mind you: in Brittain it started 3rd-4th quarter of the 18th century, that's a heck of a lot earlier than say most areas without significant coal mines which tended not to follow suit until roughly one century later -- there was a lot more indepth theoretical, practical and applied knowledge of Physics too. Plus, in order to make reasonably powerful steam engines you required a high grade steel which in turn requires the use of cokes. 'Natural' cokes (very high quality coal) is relatively rare (lower quality being more common).

Think Newton and Boyle.

Unless the steam engine accelerated by the development of those concepts,

Ehrm: exactly what part of:
(a) The increased knowledge in Science in general and Physics in particular;
(b) The fact that a large number of people were reduced to such straits they readily accepted jobs in what can only be described as some of the worst workplace environments ever to be created ... ?

and the wealth of Egypt could easily have fuelled such developments. Coupled with Archimede's steam-powered gun, a steampunk Romani Empire wouldn't have been impossible, and might have repelled the German migrations...
Yum. It makes me hungry thinking about it.