Successor State + Carthage 'What If?' Question

[Watchman]

Plus there's the initial rather substantial outlay for the machinery and the skilled workers to look after them; the running expenses of spare parts etc.; the diverse problems of fuel logistics, as the stuff has to be shipped in from God knows where at whatever extortionary expense the guys who own the source and the transportation chain manage to wring out - plus the vulnerability of that supply chain, whereas slaves were readily available from numerous sources. Etc.

Fact of the matter is, established elite groups deriving major income from the "latifundia" pattern of economy can generally keep improving their profits for quite a while just by adding more slaves, serfs, ill-paid peons or whatever and squeezing and controlling them harder, and also tend to be rather hostile to anything that might endanger their lucrative position. This seems to have been true for Rome; it certainly was for the Early Modern "new feudalism" that took root in Eastern and Central Europe and much of the Mediterranean zone and quite possibly screwed them six ways to Sunday (with repercussions lasting to this day); as it was for the "Cotton South" of the US, the sugar plantations etc. of Latin America...


Also, KozaK ? Er, no. Not really. You're making some pretty seriously sweeping and unfounded assumptions there.

[kekailoa]

It seems that a lot of hypotheses that are being made here about the possibilities of Carthaginian expansion (plus Seleucid or Hellenic) are that these civilizations would follow that exact plan of the Roman Empire.

I think that if Rome had lost the 1st Punic War, there would have been almost no resemblance of the rest of history to the reality.

One little thing like that would have changed the world beyond recognition. Our society would be an entirely different beast and I think comparing it to today's society is completely unfounded. Saying we would be speaking a Punic-based language is slightly ridiculous because we have no idea of what would happened? Who's to say the Gauls couldn't have continued their trend of urbanization and become a united Gallic state? Who's to say that Carthage would have decided on imperial ambitions? Many of these small empires that existed during the time of Rome were a direct result of Roman ambition and influence. They were the example for the rest of the world. Without Rome, what would have happened? Another millennium of warring tribal confederations and city-states?

The Seleucid Empire was an antiquated over-large behemoth on verge of splintering while Carthage was a powerful city sate who dominated their region in a manner entirely different than Rome: commerce.

It's nigh impossible to say what would have happened. We can make guesses but to base these guesses on the actions of an entirely unique new civilization that was so different from the rest of the world seems to be somewhat unwise.

[antisocialmunky]

In the end, I think we would be equally disappointed in the out come and be wondering what other cool stuff could have happened. Honestly, if the multiple dimension interpretation of QMech is right, in a parallel dimension, there are Muslim versions of most of us wondering what would have happened if Martel won.

[Watchman]

*wonders what in the world are you going to need a big sword for when lugging around an automatic firearm*
*wonders if those Shoulders O' Doom aren't really bad to brace the rifle butt against*
*has a thing against artists who go for "cool shit" without sparing a thought to functionality*
...

[Aemilius Paulus]

Hey!! That picture is in my profile album! I claim copyright infringement!!

Anyway, does anyone read Harry Turtledove here? He is often called the "Master of Alternative History" and he also happens to be my favourite author, as alternative history is my favorite fiction genre, with sci-fi and regular historical fiction trailing behind.

[Yyrkoon]

In the end, I think we would be equally disappointed in the out come and be wondering what other cool stuff could have happened. Honestly, if the multiple dimension interpretation of QMech is right, in a parallel dimension, there are Muslim versions of most of us wondering what would have happened if Martel won.

Actually if Asimov's short stories about the multiverse are correct, there's a version of me wondering what life would have been like if I had eaten that sandwich earlier instead of the burrito.

[antisocialmunky]

One of them probably got food poinsoning and died from undercooked soft shelled turtle too.

[Minister of Fear]

As I'm playing Hayasdan at the moment, I'd would like to have seen a late elite heavy infantry unit and possibly a late elite cataphract unit equal to that of the Seleukids/ Pahlavans for the successful completion of the Orontid Empire Reforms. Hypothetical? Yes. But considering the reform process that is a part of this campaign, I wouldn't have thought this was unrealistic.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Why get 100 slaves to do the work when you can have 5 machines running, with two slaves for each to set the things up, and two engineers to keep them going. (That's just a hypothesised situation btw) Even if the engineers demanded relatively high wages, it would still be cheaper than feeding 100 slaves, and was certainly cheaper than guarding them. And as people realise that being an engineer is profitable, more people would become engineers, driving the price for engineers down.

You forget that slaves can not choose a job for themselves! Also, you forget that if those 10 men could work with those machines then 90 slaves will just stay idle and idle slaves might start thinking about freedom. But slaves who think about freedom are dangerous. So, if I would be given the choice back then I would use 100 slaves and make sure they work and don't have time to think rather than using 5 machines and let those slaves run freely around.

Do you understand what kind of social problems this could've caused??? Have you thought what they would've eaten, where they would've lived and so on?? Steam engines back then would've destroyed most of the empires.

[artavazd]

As I'm playing Hayasdan at the moment, I'd would like to have seen a late elite heavy infantry unit and possibly a late elite cataphract unit equal to that of the Seleukids/ Pahlavans for the successful completion of the Orontid Empire Reforms. Hypothetical? Yes. But considering the reform process that is a part of this campaign, I wouldn't have thought this was unrealistic.

well there is the Aznvakan Tiknapah (Noble Bodyguards) which are a heavy infantry unit which uses a longsword that is highly leathal, also you have the Late Bodyguad Unit which is on par with the late Parthian, and Bactrian cataphracts.

[KozaK13]

Also, KozaK ? Er, no. Not really. You're making some pretty seriously sweeping and unfounded assumptions there.

Remember possibilities are endless, everything brought up in a "what if?" is unfounded.

I'll agree with the Pirate-Global warming correlation FSM for the win

[Watchman]

Well, yeah. But there's also the consideration whether a scenario is actually credible or not, based on what is known of the context and the relevant dynamics.

And, well, actually getting your basic facts right. *coughreligionscough*