Successor State + Carthage 'What If?' Question

[Minister of Fear]

As I'm playing Hayasdan at the moment, I'd would like to have seen a late elite heavy infantry unit and possibly a late elite cataphract unit equal to that of the Seleukids/ Pahlavans for the successful completion of the Orontid Empire Reforms. Hypothetical? Yes. But considering the reform process that is a part of this campaign, I wouldn't have thought this was unrealistic.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Why get 100 slaves to do the work when you can have 5 machines running, with two slaves for each to set the things up, and two engineers to keep them going. (That's just a hypothesised situation btw) Even if the engineers demanded relatively high wages, it would still be cheaper than feeding 100 slaves, and was certainly cheaper than guarding them. And as people realise that being an engineer is profitable, more people would become engineers, driving the price for engineers down.

You forget that slaves can not choose a job for themselves! Also, you forget that if those 10 men could work with those machines then 90 slaves will just stay idle and idle slaves might start thinking about freedom. But slaves who think about freedom are dangerous. So, if I would be given the choice back then I would use 100 slaves and make sure they work and don't have time to think rather than using 5 machines and let those slaves run freely around.

Do you understand what kind of social problems this could've caused??? Have you thought what they would've eaten, where they would've lived and so on?? Steam engines back then would've destroyed most of the empires.

[Subotan]

Alright, I concede, the chances of a Roman Insutrial Revolution were minimal at best, although I do believe that with sufficient investment, scientific genius, and a lot of luck, a smaller scale one would have been possible. However, I am certain that steam could have been used on a smaller scale, e.g. to power small irrigation systems, conveyor belts etc, had more notice been taken to Hero's invention.
Also, although that picture of the Roman with the assault rifle is awfully cool, why does he have a thin iron helmet, when he has modern firearms?

[Aemilius Paulus]

Also, although that picture of the Roman with the assault rifle is awfully cool, why does he have a thin iron helmet, when he has modern firearms?

Its purely to look "cool". And you gotta admit, it does look cool. Without the armour, gladius and helmet, the coolness would diminish greatly. Not to mention, most nations still use iron (well steel, but whatever - close enough) helmets. A helmet will never stop a bullet, unless it is a ricochet or it has been flying for already a very long distance. even then the chances are rather slim. Helmets are made to stop shrapnel, and they are quite effective in this role, as well as exceedingly useful. Modern combat helmets were developed in WWI, where 50 or even more % of the casualties were a result of injuries in the head, almost always shrapnel. (I found this data in John Keegan's WWI - so I am not just making it up) That was of course due to the nature of warfare exemplified by trenches and perpetual heavy artillery bombardments. So helmets were practically invaluable to soldiers. Not only that, but headshots are pretty rare.

Oh, and the legionary's firearm is actually more akin to the German WWII Maschinengewehr 42 (MG-42) light machine gun:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Subotan]

Hmm, I thought I recognised that gun. And yeah, I've got that book (I think), or at least one similar to it. It's really interesting.

[antisocialmunky]

That's the one that gets all that fan service from Jin Roh if I'm not mistaken.

[Watchman]

Mind you, a modernised version is still in use by at least the Italian military. MG3 it's called, IIRC.
Well, good stuff is good stuff.

[KozaK13]

You forget that slaves can not choose a job for themselves! Also, you forget that if those 10 men could work with those machines then 90 slaves will just stay idle and idle slaves might start thinking about freedom. But slaves who think about freedom are dangerous. So, if I would be given the choice back then I would use 100 slaves and make sure they work and don't have time to think rather than using 5 machines and let those slaves run freely around.

Do you understand what kind of social problems this could've caused??? Have you thought what they would've eaten, where they would've lived and so on?? Steam engines back then would've destroyed most of the empires.

I never said anything about slaves, you must have mixed up names when quoting

[a completely inoffensive name]

The MG42 is one the best guns to have when cutting down Nazi Zombies with 3 other friends in Call of Duty: World at War.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Maybe a bit more on topic? I am not addressing you, ACIN, so do not get all fired up. Just a note to future posters. Once again, I apologize for being such an ass.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I am not addressing you, ACIN, so do not get all fired up.

I won't, I have been just ignoring your spam "anti-spam" posts.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I won't, I have been just ignoring your spam "anti-spam" posts.

I am aware that my anti-spam posts are not much better than spam itself, yet I would not like to see this thread veer off further into ambiguity and general lack of staying on track. That would lead to something we are are painfully aware of. I regret that the part of my post about the type of firearm carried by the legionary caused so much bedlam. Your post about WaW did not contribute much to the restoration of order either. Neither did your reply to my request. Neither did my reply that I am now typing, but I would rather not leave your post unadressed.

I may have misunderstood your reply. Thank you for agreeing to stay on topic nevertheless. PM or Visitor Message me if you wish to continue this any further. Or to discuss WaW :)

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I never said anything about slaves, you must have mixed up names when quoting

Yes, you are right. I apologize for that. It was Subotan who I quoted.

[Subotan]

Does anyone disagree with my point, that the aelophile could in theory have started a smaller scale Industrial Revolution (More like an Industrial Rebellion ), that could have been used to power small irrigation systems, and small pulleys?

[KozaK13]

I agree, and i think that if rome hadn't risen the greeks would have recognised the possibilities of steam, paticularly in Ptolemaic egypt eg. Abdraxus' machines of alexandria, and don't forget that greeks made the Antikytera machanism (a quite accurate mechanical calender/astonomical thinger-ma-jig, i think but i can't really remember)...
infact i think the theory is that it was a roman collecter of greekish things that it was destined for before it ended up on the sea bed..imagine if it was a wealthy well connected roman who saw the potential of mechanical constructs..

[The Fuzz]

I agree, and i think that if rome hadn't risen the greeks would have recognised the possibilities of steam, paticularly in Ptolemaic egypt eg. Abdraxus' machines of alexandria

Funnily enough, I picked up a book for some light reading (The Hellenistic Age by Peter Green), and he puts in a small claim that the Greeks ingnored - and the bit on technological advances culminates with "Any device that left servile labor force with spare energy was seen as a direct stimulus to revolution."

That's a pretty interesting idea, but it's just glanced over here. I bet there's been a thesis or two on the idea of technological advance tied to fear of revolts...would be pretty interesting to read, but I'd reluctant to take Green's statement at face value until I read more. Very intriguing all the same though.

[Mediolanicus]

I agree, and i think that if rome hadn't risen the greeks would have recognised the possibilities of steam, paticularly in Ptolemaic egypt eg. Abdraxus' machines of alexandria

The greatest problem was that their metal working skills were inadequate to produce machine suitable for useful steampower. Europe only reached that level in the late medieval ages.
Which makes me wonder why China didn't thought of steam power, since they mastered those advanced metalworking skills since the 1st century BC - or was it 6th century AD? Well, at least way earlier than Europe...

[Tellos Athenaios]

Does anyone disagree with my point, that the aelophile could in theory have started a smaller scale Industrial Revolution (More like an Industrial Rebellion ), that could have been used to power small irrigation systems, and small pulleys?

Yes, Watchman and me at least. Because the world of 3rd century BC didn't resemble the frame in which a picture of the Industrial Revolution would unfold.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

You can count me too because of the same reasons.

[Ludens]

Yes, Watchman and me at least. Because the world of 3rd century BC didn't resemble the frame in which a picture of the Industrial Revolution would unfold.

I also agree with you, for the reasons cited.

[artavazd]

As I'm playing Hayasdan at the moment, I'd would like to have seen a late elite heavy infantry unit and possibly a late elite cataphract unit equal to that of the Seleukids/ Pahlavans for the successful completion of the Orontid Empire Reforms. Hypothetical? Yes. But considering the reform process that is a part of this campaign, I wouldn't have thought this was unrealistic.

well there is the Aznvakan Tiknapah (Noble Bodyguards) which are a heavy infantry unit which uses a longsword that is highly leathal, also you have the Late Bodyguad Unit which is on par with the late Parthian, and Bactrian cataphracts.