Successor State + Carthage 'What If?' Question

[Subotan]

Does anyone disagree with my point, that the aelophile could in theory have started a smaller scale Industrial Revolution (More like an Industrial Rebellion ), that could have been used to power small irrigation systems, and small pulleys?

[KozaK13]

I agree, and i think that if rome hadn't risen the greeks would have recognised the possibilities of steam, paticularly in Ptolemaic egypt eg. Abdraxus' machines of alexandria, and don't forget that greeks made the Antikytera machanism (a quite accurate mechanical calender/astonomical thinger-ma-jig, i think but i can't really remember)...
infact i think the theory is that it was a roman collecter of greekish things that it was destined for before it ended up on the sea bed..imagine if it was a wealthy well connected roman who saw the potential of mechanical constructs..

[Tellos Athenaios]

Does anyone disagree with my point, that the aelophile could in theory have started a smaller scale Industrial Revolution (More like an Industrial Rebellion ), that could have been used to power small irrigation systems, and small pulleys?

Yes, Watchman and me at least. Because the world of 3rd century BC didn't resemble the frame in which a picture of the Industrial Revolution would unfold.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

You can count me too because of the same reasons.

[antisocialmunky]

IMHO The people most likely to have achieved an pre-medieval industrial revolution were China or India. However, it never happened there because the economy and the thought systems were not in place. India was too divided and reliant on agriculture and China was to happy with what it already could do with its massive man power. It is very strange that the cultural backwater of Medieval Europe managed so quickly to jump from Dark Ages->Renaisance->Enlightenment->Industrial Revolution and become the technological leaders of the world...

[The Fuzz]

I agree, and i think that if rome hadn't risen the greeks would have recognised the possibilities of steam, paticularly in Ptolemaic egypt eg. Abdraxus' machines of alexandria

Funnily enough, I picked up a book for some light reading (The Hellenistic Age by Peter Green), and he puts in a small claim that the Greeks ingnored - and the bit on technological advances culminates with "Any device that left servile labor force with spare energy was seen as a direct stimulus to revolution."

That's a pretty interesting idea, but it's just glanced over here. I bet there's been a thesis or two on the idea of technological advance tied to fear of revolts...would be pretty interesting to read, but I'd reluctant to take Green's statement at face value until I read more. Very intriguing all the same though.

[KozaK13]

Funnily enough, I picked up a book for some light reading (The Hellenistic Age by Peter Green), and he puts in a small claim that the Greeks ingnored - and the bit on technological advances culminates with "Any device that left servile labor force with spare energy was seen as a direct stimulus to revolution."

That's a pretty interesting idea, but it's just glanced over here. I bet there's been a thesis or two on the idea of technological advance tied to fear of revolts...would be pretty interesting to read, but I'd reluctant to take Green's statement at face value until I read more. Very intriguing all the same though.

That reminds me that i read somewhere that, the archimedes screw was demonstrated to and suggested to help Vespasian rebuild Rome i think, bt he declined saying something along the lines of "How will the people be fed?" as in how will they earn money and what not if a machine can do their jobs faster and in less numbers.

[Ludens]

Yes, Watchman and me at least. Because the world of 3rd century BC didn't resemble the frame in which a picture of the Industrial Revolution would unfold.

I also agree with you, for the reasons cited.

[Mediolanicus]

I agree, and i think that if rome hadn't risen the greeks would have recognised the possibilities of steam, paticularly in Ptolemaic egypt eg. Abdraxus' machines of alexandria

The greatest problem was that their metal working skills were inadequate to produce machine suitable for useful steampower. Europe only reached that level in the late medieval ages.
Which makes me wonder why China didn't thought of steam power, since they mastered those advanced metalworking skills since the 1st century BC - or was it 6th century AD? Well, at least way earlier than Europe...

[Watchman]

My pet theory is it was the lack of constant cutthroat competition. Europe, after all, had a zillion ambitious little jerks with swords stck on an ultimately rather small geographical area, all busily trying to take over everyone else and none ever even remotely capable of doing it - so everyone tried to figure out some way to get and edge over the other guy.

The kind of mental room of maneuver the constant squabbling between the Church and the temporal princes created probably didn't hurt either.

Er, and Mediolanicus ? You're aware that the Chinese abandoned bronze for iron quite a lot later than the western Eurasians, right ? Although I'll give you they were apparently able to succesfully "port over" a lot of the really swank know-how they'd developed with bronze quite fast.

[antisocialmunky]

That probably helped contribute to it. I read somewhere a while agot that India might have been able to industrialize if Europeans didn't take it over.

That, the opportunities created by the black death, and the riches that the great families of the Italian States like Venice had to invest in weapons and the arts.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

That probably helped contribute to it. I read somewhere a while agot that India might have been able to industrialize if Europeans didn't take it over.

That, the opportunities created by the black death, and the riches that the great families of the Italian States like Venice had to invest in weapons and the arts.

You are talking about Medieval timeperiod and not the EB timeperiod here. The fact is that in the EB timeperiod(3rd Century BC - 1st Century AD) slaves were too common and too widely used so that this "industrialized revolution" to take place.

Like KozaK13 said, how will all those slaves (who were not needed anymore because of the machines) earn money? And where will they live? What will they eat?

Sooner or later all those people would've just taken weapons and overthrown their 'former' masters.

[a completely inoffensive name]

They could have just put in the slaves into the army and use them as cheap fodder to soften up enemy forces before moving in with the trained troops. Just a thought, don't flame me.

[antisocialmunky]

Arm slaves and put them in between people they totally hate and are scared of and people who want to kill the people they totally hate?

Maybe if you had a whole lot of big scary dudes.

[a completely inoffensive name]

If the slaves are under the Roman (or whoever we are talking about) banner I don't think the enemy army would have given a second thought, "hey these look like slaves, lets turn them for us". Just like anybody forced into the army into modern day times, they know the enemy would have killed them as well, so might as well fight for my master and hope to survive the battle.

[antisocialmunky]

All I'm saying is that there are some annoying little side effects...

Unless they are something like those Mamluks. I mean, if you just have some armed slaves, they aren't going to be particularly useful unless its is 1.0 where they are armed with BFG 9K knives. If you're going to go the slave route, then you might as well get good slaves that do it for a living rather than are just thrown into it.

I guess it wouldn't be so bad if you replaced 'slaves' with poor people who's lives suck whether they live or die.. that's like psiloi or whatever.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Well I was throwing this out only as solution to the problem of "what to do with all these slaves we don't need anymore due to all these machines". It wouldn't be practical to make slaves a contingent of your army, but if we are just looking for a way to get rid of all this unwanted man power, I can't find a more efficient way then dumping them in the army. If they desert, then at least they spread out, hide and try to live the rest of their lives in peace, not forming any pesky rebellions against the Senate.

[antisocialmunky]

You could send them off to horrible places to find resources to fuel your machines. Load them on a boat and send them off.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I can see using them as miners/resource gatherers for the machines, the boat one just seems wasteful and too costly considering there are a lot of slaves.

[antisocialmunky]

Prisoners worked pretty good with Australia, I don't see how slaves would work any less good.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Oh, so when you say "ship them off" you mean ship them to settle somewhere else? Or in other words essentially free them in a distant land where they can't hurt you?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Why would you send them to mines if you have machines that can do their work a lot faster??

Also, it would be pretty foolish to give weapons to people who just were slaves. It's like "Hey! Here are some weapons for you. Please come and kill us and take our money!" Also, those in power need to arm those former slaves and give them food and so on while there is no battles to fight. AND battles were not that common. Perhaps 1 in a month if you were in a really bloody war with someone and you have to remember that people then fought only in summer/warmer months.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Machines cant do all the mining. People still operate the machines that mine to this day.

[Subotan]

This is a badass debate.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Machines cant do all the mining. People still operate the machines that mine to this day.

Yes, but you don't need thousands of people to operate them.

[antisocialmunky]

I think that in most places, it still takes a lot of people to actually do the mining especially if its subterranian

:-\

Honestly, this is a pointless conversation since people usually won't develop the new infrastructure for things like machinery if there are pre-existing methods of doing the same thing such as massive man power. For example, in China it is still much cheaper to hire a bunch of rural peasants to do construction rather than bring in a bulldozer. You can also be a bastard and not pay your hires while you have to maintain your bulldozer... which also happens in China.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

...people usually won't develop the new infrastructure for things like machinery if there are pre-existing methods of doing the same thing such as massive man power...

I agree with that completely.

[HunGeneral]

I agree on that too

Many great inventions like Herons "Steam-Machines" were simply not made because it was cheaper to use some slaves than use machines instead.

I also read somewhere that the Greeks for exampel didn't use or make any "over-advanced machines" because they believed that true science is the knowledge you don't use to make a gain or which doens't necessery have a practical use

I might be wrong however...

[Subotan]

Remember I said small scale, and I meant small scale, like small pulleys, small irrigation systems etc.

I don't anyone would diagree with me that the idea of a steam powered Arche Seleukeia would be one of the coolest things ever :D (From our point of view, of course)

[Ibn-Khaldun]

This industrialization would've been possible only IF the rulers would've had a detailed plan on what to do with the slaves. perhaps giving them some rights and over time they would've been integrated into the state.
But, like people have said here before, it's much easier to use slaves than machines.