MTW DEADLY SINS

[gollum]

MP is a different case/game alltogether.

For me, single player campaign is not a rehearsal for multiplayer. I won't shy away from using the pause button, as it allows me to get past technical limitations (select/move/attack orders all use the same button) and allows me to keep things together on the tactical level (Napoleon didn't have a pause button, but he had officers that could take care of lower level micromanagement tasks...).

The downside is that my point-and-click-technique will not develop, i.e. I won't be so good at multiplayer. But I prefer other games for true real-time management, games with a stronger focus to this kind of a technique. RTS games like Warcraft 3 come in mind. It would feel utterly ridiculous to use the pause button in that game, as a lot has to do how to optimize building processes and powerups while attacking/defending.

Yes and no. Its actually the same game, and in fact mp players can outmaneuver the AI not because they are faster but because they have better judgement and can filter info from the interface better.

It seems that you think that the technical/particular/tangible is an obstactle to the theoretical/abstract/non-tangible, and yet the two are not in competition - reaching the non-tangible means transcending the tangible, not skiping it altogether. To make a simple example no-one can write poetry without knowing the alphabet, and watching TW at the highest level (which is inevitably in mp - and yet can be manifested in SP battles just as well) is nothing less than poetry in my view.

just remember that even the best players were once upon a time newbies - everyone can reach high, assuming that he is not afraid to dive in the sea of technicalities and learn how to swim.

!it burnsus!

[PershsNhpios]

Another sin - on a much larger scale - and one which I never use. (Except when playing in stormy weather!)

12. Auto-Saving between battles.

This can be a poorly abused exploit for players who simply can't accept defeat, and return to battles mid-turn in order to play in the same circumstances with advantaged knowledge.
I only use it when there is a chance of crashing, or power-failure, but I have seen many players admit of using the saves, like all others, to play constantly through the same scenario until they win it through.
How sore! How sinful!

[gollum]

True but, as with the pause button only for players with adequate experience enough to play the game without it.

We forgot to mention that both are indispensible for people who are new to the game and need to learn more in order to enjoy the game.

Also, after Caliburn s addition we should be in number 12, methinks.

!it burnsus!

[Caliburn]

Well, it's all a matter of perspective. But the truth is, if I don't use the pause button, I'll easily revert to using the simplest tactics and trying new things on a less regular basis. Spear line, arbalests in front, cavalry on the flanks, engage, retreat arbalests, charge with the cavalry from flanks and rear.

It may be that my TW skills are merely adequate, but I like to invest my time in the aspects I find interesting, i.e. the strategic and tactical aspects over training on using the interface. Of course that means I'll never master the game completely, but at least now I can curse at the mangy dogs outmaneuvering me instead of having to fix my battleline real-time when I've accidentally issued a move order.

In Rome and Medieval 2 I don't use the pause button, as the interface has been improved.

Autosaves between battles used to crash my game, so I've never used them. Even when it has meant slaughtering slav warriors for six straight hours... TW neurosis

[caravel]

The autosave and quicksave are prone to corruption and are best avoided if you're getting problems with savegames refusing to load.

The pre battle save is as much of an exploit as the pre battle screen itself. The shuffling of reinforcements is something that the AI cannot do, it has to go into battle with the starting line up that it's given (this is how it worked in MTW 1.1 and in STW). I find that if I can shuffle my reinforcements around and dismout my troops, I can win any battle. I've won battles against the GH in this way when outnumbered three to one. I had mostly spears, bows and arbalests with some flanking units and fast cavarly in the starting line up. My archers were queued up in batches to come on when required to replace those that had run out of ammo. Replacement spears would be well down the list as they are needed later. I would have batches of cavalry and flankers in between the missiles to replace tired units. When you have this kind of organisation and you're camped on a nice hill, taking on the GH is a turkey shoot. This is why I'd add the "pre battle reinforcements shuffler" to the list.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Caliburn
Well, it's all a matter of perspective. But the truth is, if I don't use the pause button, I'll easily revert to using the simplest tactics and trying new things on a less regular basis.

t may be that my TW skills are merely adequate, but I like to invest my time in the aspects I find interesting, i.e. the strategic and tactical aspects over training on using the interface. Of course that means I'll never master the game completely, but at least now I can curse at the mangy dogs outmaneuvering me instead of having to fix my battleline real-time when I've accidentally issued a move order.

The point i was trying to make is that tactics are performed through the interface/controls its the means to achieve the end - you can master tactics without it - but only in theory. If you invest a bit of time in learning the technicalities you may find that it actually after a while enables you to do more than you thought, not less. Initially of course it may be troublesome.

In judo, instructors train starters to repeat a certain throw for a long time, until they finally start mastering it and have a certain degree of success with it. At that point they ask them to stop applying it completely and perform another one from scratch. This is mentally a painful process as no one likes to leave that little success achieved to become a beginner again - but important twofold; it allows you to build a repertoir and also it detaches you from *favorite* techniques that become so, because the judoka feels that he is succesful for them. The reason to dettach is because an attached judoka can be conditioned in his reactions by an opponent.

This is called *cutting off the bulls hornes*

Its true that you may rever back to simpler tactics initially - and yet after a while, once you are familiar with the interface you ll be able to actually perform more complex ones than when you are using the pause button.

Originally posted by Caravel
When you have this kind of organisation and you're camped on a nice hill, taking on the GH is a turkey shoot. This is why I'd add the "pre battle reinforcements shuffler" to the list.

Indeed - its actually depressingly easy. All the more so if you check the composition of attacking waves and condition yours accordingly so. If you have crossbows/arbalesters it feels more like playing with
gun tactics if anything.

!it burnsus!

[Caliburn]

The point i was trying to make is that tactics are performed through the interface/controls its the means to achieve the end - you can master tactics without it - but only in theory. If you invest a bit of time in learning the technicalities you may find that it actually after a while enables you to do more than you thought, not less. Initially of course it may be troublesome.

I got your point the first time. It is a good point.

But I enjoy playing the game on the level I'm right now, as long as I can find new ways to get more out of it, i.e. trying new unit combinations, tactics, mods, unit balancing and house rules, even if it means giving advantages/disadvantages to the AI. At this point I'm an infrequent player, so I've lost quite a bit of my touch, so I'm not about to start learning new interface tricks, as I'm slowly losing control over the older ones. I'll never be the MTW poet you've talked about...

My goal in playing this game must be a bit different - we both strive to get better and get as much out of the game as possible. I'm simply not ready to invest time in training my mouse-finger anymore. Yet, I'll never let go of Shogun and M1 over Rome or M2, because it is more challenging, and not only because the interface is different.

Edit:

I came across this recent post by Gollum:

The best thing to do is to use the grouping feature which in this version of the TW engine is supreme; basically say you have spears swords archers a knight general and a bunch of seargents. Now group thus;
control plus shift plus number all together, say 1 for swords, 2 for spears, 3 archers, 4 for seargents, 5 for general. You can have over or subgroups too, say you want a combined version of the general and one seargent use 6. Recall with control plus number. In this way you have a very quick way to access main army components - you can micro individually from picking at the moment of action in the screen to pull a flank charge while all the group of seargents say is on the move.

Which means that you don't need the pause button after all in M1! Ah, live and learn. How could I have missed that I actually CAN use quick keys to access unit groups?

Sorry for defending a moot point. And actually being quite wrong about it as well, as my main objection was just this: selecting groups by pointing and clicking at the group icons.


End of Edit...

In judo, instructors train starters to repeat a certain throw for a long time, until they finally start mastering it and have a certain degree of success with it. At that point they ask them to stop applying it completely and perform another one from scratch.

I've never really appreciated this kind of instruction - applying only a simple set of moves that you master completely. Different people respond to different kind of instruction. Of course it's good to get the basics right, but starting with a larger repertoire gives a person a much wider idea of how the complete thing (a martial art, painting, swimming, playing tennis, language) works, a grasp of different situations etc.

Heh. Throws can be tricky, because in very basic training situations the opponent gives way, which is not the case in actual one-on-one. So it's a good idea to master moves perfectly, and start wrestling from the beginning, so the throws are constantly being tested and improved in a "real" situation. There is a risk, though, as beginners don't always know how to fall correctly etc...

[DEB8]

The pre battle save is as much of an exploit as the pre battle screen itself. The shuffling of reinforcements is something that the AI cannot do, it has to go into battle with the starting line up that it's given (this is how it worked in MTW 1.1 and in STW). I find that if I can shuffle my reinforcements around and dismout my troops, I can win any battle. I've won battles against the GH in this way when outnumbered three to one. I had mostly spears, bows and arbalests with some flanking units and fast cavarly in the starting line up. My archers were queued up in batches to come on when required to replace those that had run out of ammo. Replacement spears would be well down the list as they are needed later. I would have batches of cavalry and flankers in between the missiles to replace tired units. When you have this kind of organisation and you're camped on a nice hill, taking on the GH is a turkey shoot. This is why I'd add the "pre battle reinforcements shuffler" to the list.

I disagree on both points.

a) My pre-battle save comment/s have been posted in the previous post. The Sin is to change anything after loading the save simply because you lost the battle or had too many losses and you wish to refight it !!! If the game crashed, and only then ; I would make a very minor change like swapping two of the units around in their boxes ( both on or both off "map" ) to encourage the game to not crash after re loading it.

b) The units that the AI places in the "deployment" area ( when I have 17+ units available ) are usually NOT those that I had in my 16 unit main army ( and rarely those that I would have chosen for my first 16 either ). I believe the AI chooses the order of it's unit's ( as well as yours ! ) and therefore you should get to chose your order too.

[ I have witnessed approx. 36 units being siphoned off from a 7 army total of approx. 84 units, and sorted into a deployed battle army plus reserves. I then decided to retreat and avoid the battle, whereupon the "36" units were reset back onto the map into 3 medium sized armies. Not one of those 3 armies matched the battle deployed army at all, with 7 archers (Mongol Warriors) in the deployment being notably spread "evenly" between the said 3 armies. Hence the AI ( IMHO ) deploys / orders and you should be able to do so also. No sin. ]

[edyzmedieval]

I disagree with the disbanding part - it kind of limits you if you have a large garrison and it's pointless, just disband the units especially if they're not of big use.

[DEB8]

12. Auto-Saving between battles.

This can be a poorly abused exploit for players who simply can't accept defeat, and return to battles mid-turn in order to play in the same circumstances with advantaged knowledge.
I only use it when there is a chance of crashing, or power-failure, but I have seen many players admit of using the saves, like all others, to play constantly through the same scenario until they win it through.
How sore! How sinful!

As quoted - very sinful, if not just plain cheating...

[ Apart from pre-battle saves ( on the deployment screen ) to circumvent possible Crashes !! ]