Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
But the Palestinians do have something to offer: peace = no more waste of human (jewish and palestinian!) lives.
And, thinking long term here, once Palestinians get jobs and build up their part of the newly created country, they will add revenue to the newly created state (taxes).
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy
Ja mata, TosaInu
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
nope i really don't.
the beeb has a wonderful way of 'presenting' statistics i always find, but if you are in any doubt about the UNWRA stated numbers i recommend you Ctrl+F the word "quarter" in the following news links:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...237167997.html
http://www.thecornerreport.com/index...&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/s...aza-strip.html
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...d/6195845.html
I could give you more but it seems a bit redundant.
Last edited by Furunculus; 01-06-2009 at 13:36.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
That's kind of hard though due to how densely populated it is. Even if there was peace most Palestinians would be unemployed and rebuilding that country would take go knows how long. To long I don't even want to think about it. The fact half of them are Arabs shoved into Gaza by Israel makes you think that maybe an agreement could be reached for example where by Israel would let some of the Palestinian citizens move into their country or at least provide jobs in their country for them.
That would never happen though.
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
come on now, i was just being nice and informing you in a nice way of a teensy error you had made, a quick "thanks" would have more than sufficed.my mistake , it confusing with so many wars , of course Yom Kippur was '73 thats when some countries launched a surprise attack on Israel , the six day war was when Israel launched a surprise attack on some countries .
I suppose we should add the '56 war when Israel and its european allies started a war and the South Lebanon war where Israel and its terrorist friends had a little party that didn't turn out too well .
Last edited by Furunculus; 01-06-2009 at 13:45.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
Did you read those articles yourself?
Just quickly skimming through with out reading thoroughly I can't find any statistics..
Last edited by tibilicus; 01-06-2009 at 13:44.
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
because those launch sites are not like US/Societ ICMB sites which is to say that they are not fixed concrete launch pads in the middle of 100,000 hectares of prarie-land. They are launched from anywhere and everywhere which frequently includes densely populated civilian areas precisely because they want the protection and the propoganda from israeli retaliation.
yes, they are attempting to break the back of the organised insurgency, how succesfully is the matter in dispute.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
but they all quote the UNWRA as stating that more than a quarter of casualties have been civilian, and at no time is the word majority used in the same context.............................. do they not?
Ctrl+F is your friend.
Last edited by Furunculus; 01-06-2009 at 13:47.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
But the Palestinians do have something to offer: peace = no more waste of human (jewish and palestinian!) lives.
And, thinking long term here, once Palestinians get jobs and build up their part of the newly created country, they will add revenue to the newly created state (taxes).
They get that gain, but almost any nationalist would find it hard to lose or share power in this way, just as one example the water situation, i forget the exact figures but its something like 90-95% of water goes to israelis.
Putting aside what should be done, i can understand israelis (i disagree strongly but i can understand why like with terrorism i guess) not wanting to give up and share resources with what they regard as such a despicable enemy, and after thier fathers and forefather fought so hard to just give it up and allow the arabs a majority
Im trying to think in terms of the average israeli family here, sure they may very well lose a relative either in the military or from an attack, but they get the majority of the water, the majority of the land, and then to have to share all that would drastically cut them back...
And that is what i think is one of the major obstacles, for the majority of israelis peace would involve losing more than continued war will... or at least it must be true for a sizeable minority in the very least...
I think in the end a comfortable life and a majority jewish state are more important to many israelis than the lives peace could save, add in the fact that both leaderships gain power from the conflict and you have the recipe for many years of conflict ahead.... its staggering to think its gone on for so long but i cannot see an end to it anytime soon...
TBH i think the only way peace can ever be achieved is from huge international pressure, i just can't ever see them sorting it out themselves....
In remembrance of our great Admin Tosa Inu, A tireless worker with the patience of a saint. As long as I live I will not forget you. Thank you for everything!
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
Ah, but if you make it a (con)federal state then Israel becomes the country of the Palestinians and Palestina the country of the Israelians. Of course, Palestinians would be allowed to live in what is now Israel and vice versa.
Negativism and continuing this perpetual state of war will get us nowhere. Dreaming about peace is the first step, not the final one. First you dream, then you work out the dream. Don't let difficult problems stop the peace proces, try to find a solution instead.
I think your regular Ahmed/David Sixpack prefers peace over the current situation.
Put them in the same country, give them equal rights, ensure legal protection of minorities.
All the problems you name can be solved.
The only thing that is lacking at the moment is the will to do it by those in power.
Which is beyond my comprehension and makes me, like every armed conflict does, feel very disappointed in the human race.
Last edited by Andres; 01-06-2009 at 13:54.
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy
Ja mata, TosaInu
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
I believe one also said that figures are very hard to obtain due to Israel refusing to let international journalists in. This is shown due to the fact news agency's like the BBC are reporting very different things from other news agency's.
Israeli reluctance to allow international journalists in also suggests they may be wanting to cover up some of the casualties with out going to conspiracy theorist on you.
The Independent actually has a reporter In Gaza city who reported yesterday a civilian death toll figure way above the 25% you are suggesting. To be honest we could have this argument all day and pull up sources from different web sites but is there really any point till Israel lets more journalists in?
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
Sounds good to me.
Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
If a solution has to be obtained by international pressure, then the first thing every country should do, is stop picking sides in this conflict.
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy
Ja mata, TosaInu
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
it is not true that israelies cannot live in a majority jewish state without the current status-quo, this is what the whole right to return issue is about. there can indeed be a palestinian state and a majority jewish israel.
and they do indeed desire a state of peace, because the conflict is already causing immigrants to return to their country of origin and most of the great jewish emigrations that bolstered jewish numbers in israel in previous decades have already happened, there aren't many more left who are willing to come.
Last edited by Furunculus; 01-06-2009 at 14:03.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
your dodging the fact that you made a statement of majority and are now having to backtrack because the official word is more than a quarter.
S.O.P. all militaries try to manage information inside theatres of operation, this has already been said many times in this thread, stop playing deus-ex.
Or we could look to UNWRA................?
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
If a solution has to be obtained by international pressure, then the first thing every country should do, is stop picking sides in this conflict.
If all countries agreed to not deal with either except to send basic aid (food, water and medicine) its probably the way i would go about it. It almost seems unfair but that would almost exclusively affect isrealis, i doubt most palestinians would notice the difference...
The main obstacles to this however is people with shared religions
American jews refuse to allow thier political leader to abandon thier brothers
Arabs either refuse to allow thier leaders to abandon thier brothers or might just realise they're living in a dictatorship when they stop thinking about israel
The main way i could see it working is an agreemnt between america and the rest of the arab world to stay out of it and not fund thier personal favourite, doesn't china buy military tech off israel ? i don't see them being too quick to put a stop to that...
The international pressure being brought to bear is also a tough one to achieve, easier probably than them sorting it out themselves...
The only way i see it happening is if arabs living in the US manage to become as powerful a lobby as the jewish one, or basically to the point of cancelling each other out, then the US with some arm twisitng could probably convince most people to go along with a world boycott...
TBH my glass is half empty here, even if the arab lobby does become as powerful as the jewish, i don't see the US changing tactics still, and there would just be absolutlely no political will to treat israel so badly (which is how im guessing such actions would play out in us domestic media)
Just a note i pretty much agree with everything you say... think im just too much of a pessimist to believe any of it is possible within the next 10-20 years... maybe even 30 or 40
In remembrance of our great Admin Tosa Inu, A tireless worker with the patience of a saint. As long as I live I will not forget you. Thank you for everything!
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
it is not true that israelies cannot live in a majority jewish state without the current status-quo, this is what the whole right to return issue is about. there can indeed be a palestinian state and a majority jewish israel.
Well i was referring to Andres one country idea, which afaik would leave jews a minority....
and they do indeed desire a state of peace, because the conflict is already causing immigrants to return to their country of origin and most of the great jewish emigrations that bolstered jewish numbers in israel in previous decades have already happened, there aren't many more left who are willing to come.
Well its the ones who can stand war the least that will leave, those who desire it the most will stay on and as a result won't israel become less and less a state looking for peace... more and more a state in the hands of the fringe element who for whatever reason (religion, revenge or any racial superority they may believe in)
TBH this just depresses me further as the conflict seems even less solveable!!
Not that i was doubting your fact but do you have any links that confirm this...
S.O.P. all militaries try to manage information inside theatres of operation, this has already been said many times in this thread, stop playing deus-ex.
Don't they all try and downplay the numbers of deaths and numbers of innocents usually as well...
Sounds good to me.
Remember CA, pentiums and oranges ;)
Last edited by LittleGrizzly; 01-06-2009 at 14:17.
In remembrance of our great Admin Tosa Inu, A tireless worker with the patience of a saint. As long as I live I will not forget you. Thank you for everything!
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
I'm not back tracking I was estimating my figures at 50% + civilians from sources such as the bbc which I still believe I was simply stating no one can have hard facts till Israel lets more reporters in.
Quit being so hostile and defensive over everything anyway, it's only a forum debate.
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
If you want the conflict solved then remove the problem, with Hamas out of the way the much more moderate Fatah can take things over in Gaza. This conflict will never stop if you want to please everyone, and what's the problem Hamas broke the truce knowing fully well that everybody will blame Israel anyway because they are uninformed; had to explain to a friend of mine that this wasn't the response to a single mortar attack, he reads quality newspapers so he had no idea of the rockets. If jews control the media they sure do a poor job.
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
Religion has nothing to do with it.
Oh yes, I can hear you all yelling at me : "but religion has everything to do with it!"
No, it hasn't.
Seperation between church and state. Not just on paper, as a way of organising a modern state, but also in the mind.
Seperate religion from it and look at it from a humanist perspective.
It's necessary if we want to get somewhere near something that resembles a solution.
They make the same mistake many make: they pick a side. If we want to help solve this conflict, then don't pick sides.
They make the same mistake many make: they pick a side. If we want to help solve this conflict, then don't pick sides.
If the international community truly wants to seek a solution for this conflict, than not getting involved is not on option I'm afraid. It seems like both parties are too deep into their own mess to keep a clear head. They need help.
But if the international community manages to agree to no longer pick sides (which could well be more than half of the solution in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict...), then how should we interfere?
Sending a peace keeping force stationed between both parties in combination with a constant, never ending stream of negotiators which keep proposing several (complicated) stateforms (so that the Palestinian and Israelian leaders either come to an agreement or die out of boredom).
Both parties will never agree about who gets what territory, so make it one big country with equal rights, minory protection, veto rights for several groups on several issues.
Pessimism will get us nowhere
I try to keep in mind that the regular Ahmed/David Sixpack does not want war. Nobody in their sane mind wants war. Only evil men and women abusing the minds of hopeless/naive/good people want war.
There is no such thing as a just cause for war. There simply isn't. War is the summum of absurdity, people don't want war.
I truly believe that the majority of the people living in Israel/Palestina don't want war, but desire peace and an end to their hopeless situation, but the thing is, they don't seem to manage to get those in power to listen to them.
Maybe they'll listen to the international community, which has to end its' own quarrels and petty power games first before starting to help to find a solution.
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy
Ja mata, TosaInu
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
Has Israel asked the UN to police the border instead of it's own troops?
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
Throughout the last century large numbers of immigrants left Palestine/Israel after arriving .because the conflict is already causing immigrants to return to their country of origin and most of the great jewish emigrations that bolstered jewish numbers in israel in previous decades have already happened, there aren't many more left who are willing to come.
A while ago Adrian posted a piece about Iranian Jews leaving Israel because they were treated likein Israel , add to that the problem with newer immigrants who are moving to Israel just to get an Israeli passport so it is easier for them to move on to another country .
I suppose one real irony is the Jewish section of Jerusalem where the long established community is being driven out by the fanatic immigrants from out Hooahs neck of the woods who consider themselves to be the only real Jews .
Crazy isn't it , a bunch of nuts from Brooklyn who don't actually recognise the State of Israel are persecuting the local Jews .
What a screwed up country .
Do the IDF need more target practice or something ?Has Israel asked the UN to police the border instead of it's own troops?
Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 01-06-2009 at 18:48.
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
So who wants to try and justify this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7814054.stm
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
Yes, they do seem to accidentally kill the odd member of the press next to a press van, destroy the occsional UN bunker, sink the odd ship in international waters... Laws don't apply to Israelis it seems.
School? School? Damn good strike on a weapons cache with trainees for suicide bombers in situ if you ask me. There are no innocents in the West Bank.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
And yet so many israeli-arabs decide to stayA while ago Adrian posted a piece about Iranian Jews leaving Israel because they were treated like
Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 01-06-2009 at 18:49. Reason: Edited quote
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
Watching the news right now Israel justified its attacks on not one but two UN run schools in refugee camps because they claimed Hamas fighters were located there..
UN officials involved in the running of the school said no Hamas fighters were in the building at the time and so far at least 40 children have been confirmed as dead.
Also watching the Israeli defence minister on t.v never have I heard some one try to make such callous and coward like excuses for such actions. Right now I'm disgusted with Israel, they make me feel physically sick to my stomach. An operation to try and boost its pathetic self esteem. Israel at this moment is a cowards nation.
Last edited by tibilicus; 01-06-2009 at 19:11.
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
Hmm I just received an infraction for drawing paralels between Israel and a certain Nationalistic movement which became prominent in Central Europe during the 30's under the leadership of an Austrian dude. Its worth 1 point.
I 've now become a martyr for the cause.
I will post the part of my post I think Banquo is ok with
'You have got to kill them when they are small. Its very important because the might breed when they reach adulthood. Of course it is not terrorism because the people who did it are wearing military uniforms. Of course it doesnt matter that it was UN territory and full with refugees because the UN will say nothing and the State Department will come up with a good reason why it was a good idea.'
(If that's offensive too tell me and I will delete it and replace it with something about pretty flowers and fluffy bunnies)
Αξιζει φιλε να πεθανεις για ενα ονειρο, κι ας ειναι η φωτια του να σε καψει.
http://grumpygreekguy.tumblr.com/
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
Actually the UN have openly spoken out about it tonight saying that the Israel are hitting the wrong targets and that so far their operation isn't working.
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
i will-
you know, this iswar. not a war game. accidents happen. it happens in all wars, and its very sad when this happens, but its part of war. sides try to avoid this kind of stuff, but sometimes it happens.
On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
Visited:
Hvil i fred HoreToreA man who casts no shadow has no soul.
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
....and yet the UN is silent when hamas rockets fall on israeli towns....
and who is the UN to say when an operation isnt working?
Last edited by Hooahguy; 01-06-2009 at 20:07.
On the Path to the Streets of Gold: a Suebi AAR
Visited:
Hvil i fred HoreToreA man who casts no shadow has no soul.
Re: Some joyous tidings from Israel
You have to be kidding me right? So now your hinting towards that the UN might support terrorist organizations? Maybe they to are anti-semetic!
Damn the whole united nations and the whole world for that matter just hate Israel. God they're such victims, I turn on the t.v and just think damn, look at the suffering they're going through..
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
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