Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Hax]

Indeed, it is the target and intentions that make the difference.

The road to hell is paved with "good" intentions.

[Guildenstern]

Most of the dead were Hamas security and police forces, but many were also civilians, including children. Gaza hospitals are overwhelmed with the casualties. The strikes were expected for Sunday, but were done earlier to increase casualties, in what is now clearly the first step to escalation of the conflict. Given how crowded Gaza is, it is effectively a city of one million people, avoiding civilian casualties is practically impossible.

A bombing attack like this can do a fair bit of damage, as it did, but Hamas will now disperse its people and assets, and future bombings will be less effective. The leaders killed will be replaced, and not by moderates. The missile attacks (which are scary but essentially ineffective) will continue. Gazans will hate Israelis even more. To get anything "meaningful" accomplished Israel has to invade on foot because they have to search for the missiles and the missile production centers.

But when they do that, they put themselves at risk because Hamas has destroyed Israeli tanks in the past...

[Hooahguy]

Most of the dead were Hamas security and police forces, but many were also civilians, including children. Gaza hospitals are overwhelmed with the casualties. The strikes were expected for Sunday, but were done earlier to increase casualties, in what is now clearly the first step to escalation of the conflict. Given how crowded Gaza is, it is effectively a city of one million people, avoiding civilian casualties is practically impossible.

A bombing attack like this can do a fair bit of damage, as it did, but Hamas will now disperse its people and assets, and future bombings will be less effective. The leaders killed will be replaced, and not by moderates. The missile attacks (which are scary but essentially ineffective) will continue. Gazans will hate Israelis even more. To get anything "meaningful" accomplished Israel has to invade on foot because they have to search for the missiles and the missile production centers.

But when they do that, they put themselves at risk because Hamas has destroyed Israeli tanks in the past...

true. war has casualties. civilian casualties are horrible to inflict, but sometimes its unavoidable and sometimes even necessary.

to quote from David Kenyon Webster (im paraphrasing here), from the book Parachute Infantry:

"i dont know why you want this war to be over so fast. we need to bring the war to the germans, fight in their streets, bomb their houses and leave dead in the streets. unless we show them how cruel war is, they will always have hate in them, and this will create the next war."

these people want aid, but dont want to stop the tyrants and maniacs who are controlling them. until they throw off the maniacs, they will have to suffer.
this is israels strategy. hopefully the Palestinians in gaza will elect a peaceful government, then peace can reign. but as long as hamas is in power, nothing doing.

also, AFAIK, israel isnt deliberately targeting civilians, or at least not all the time. they are targeting hamas, who hides among civilians. in this case, civilian deaths are unavoidable.
and precision bombing isnt always precise.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Okay, another question for the pro-intifada folks - why would you support Hamas when, in response to this attack they are going to attack even more civilians in Israel? Why is just stopping their constant terrorist attacks such an impossibility to even consider?

CR

[Jolt]

these people want aid, but dont want to stop the tyrants and maniacs who are controlling them. until they throw off the maniacs, they will have to suffer.
this is israels strategy. hopefully the Palestinians in gaza will elect a peaceful government, then peace can reign. but as long as hamas is in power, nothing doing.

also, AFAIK, israel isnt deliberately targeting civilians, or at least not all the time. they are targeting hamas, who hides among civilians. in this case, civilian deaths are unavoidable.
and precision bombing isnt always precise.

Pityfully, I myself agreeing with this. Hamas is as intransigent as it gets and allowed attacks on Israeli civilians while Israel didn't do any such thing. The Gaza people must elect Fatah for this cycle of wars to (hopefully) change for good.

[FactionHeir]

Maybe if the "international" community had actually acknowledged the fair election win by Hamas a few years back rather than block them off completely because they didn't like the result of a democratic election, things would have been different.
And stopping now would just show weakness - something their leadership cannot afford at this point when the populace is out for revenge.

Disproportionate force was used, let's face it, and continuing to bomb through the night after first calls for a cease fire is not helping.

[Fragony]

Maybe if the "international" community had actually acknowledged the fair election win by Hamas a few years back rather than block them off completely because they didn't like the result of a democratic election, things would have been different.
And stopping now would just show weakness - something their leadership cannot afford at this point when the populace is out for revenge.

Disproportionate force was used, let's face it, and continuing to bomb through the night after first calls for a cease fire is not helping.

The fact that hamas was elected makes me kinda less concerned about civilians. This is what they wanted.

[naut]

I always find it humourous when people try to compare Hamas/Futah/Hezbolah with the IRA. Apples and oranges, people.

The fact that hamas was elected makes me kinda less concerned about civilians. This is what they wanted.

The fact that the Knesset is elected makes me less concerned about civilians. This is what they wanted. Isn't it?

Two can play at that game.

[Samurai Waki]

I hate thinking it, but I just don't really see the point of caring anymore. Its like neither side will listen to reason, instead they are so entrenched in their own ignorance that its pointless to even feel sorry for them anymore. I feel terrible for any innocent that has to put up with the completely insane politics of that region.

[Tribesman]

The fact that hamas was elected makes me kinda less concerned about civilians. This is what they wanted.

An interesting idea , people elected Hamas because they wanted to be bombed not because Hamas was itself running food programs , healthcare and social welfare payments while the principle opposition had sunk to new levels of corruption .
Errrrr...hold on , your arguement doesn't seem to hold any water Frag as it seems to be kinda full of great big holes .

[Tribesman]

until they throw off the maniacs, they will have to suffer.
this is israels strategy. hopefully the Palestinians in gaza will elect a peaceful government, then peace can reign. but as long as hamas is in power, nothing doing.

Its funny , thats what they said all the time with the PLO , then when the PLO wasn't in power they financed a coup and gave them guns .

BTW

they will have to suffer.
this is israels strategy.

Errr.....thats collective punishment isn't it ? thats illegal isn't it ?
which is hilarious when you think good old uncle adolf really loved the old collective punishment but you errrrr.....

i take offense at this.

...when the obvious is stated .

So back to the obvious question in relation to the main topic .
Is Israels bombing strategy going to work ?
Not bloody likely . Hamas will remain in Gaza and probably extend their level of support in the West Bank .
So once again Israel repeats its mistakes and not only fails to win militarily it gets another bloody big PR disaster for good measure .
But hey elections coming up so you gotta just bomb something eh

[Hooahguy]

Its funny , thats what they said all the time with the PLO , then when the PLO wasn't in power they financed a coup and gave them guns .

only when they realized the PLO was less worse than hamas, if im understanding you correctly.

BTW
Errr.....thats collective punishment isn't it ? thats illegal isn't it ?
which is hilarious when you think good old uncle adolf really loved the old collective punishment but you errrrr........when the obvious is stated .

arent sending rockets at israeli civilians also "illegal?"
please, the illegal thing isnt really going to work here. just like the joker in The Dark Knight , hamas has no rules. trying to play by the rules while you enemy has none wont help you. it will only make things worse. now, im not saying that you should go out and massacre civilians, but dont be afraid to throw that grenade at the terrorist who is hiding behind that child.
technically anyone who aids a combatant becomes one him/herself, so i guess it is right to send that missile at the group of women who are shielding the terrorists.
what annoys me is that people arent as upset when a suicide bomber blows himself up in a crowded israeli pizzeria, but go all up in arms when an israeli rocket, targeting combatants, accidentally kills some civilians.
/rant

[Hax]

Not accidentally. If they really thought there would not be civilian casualties, they'd be either naïve or fools. I'd like to think the first, though.

technically anyone who aids a combatant becomes one him/herself, so i guess it is right to send that missile at the group of women who are shielding the terrorists.

Alright, that's good! Let's also just shoot anyone with a basement, they might have terrorists in there.

So, we've come to the "right" point. I think you have about the same right to live in a place, as I have to stab you multiple times in the face and then set your corpse alight? Are we on the same page here?

So you say that the Jews have the God-given right to live in Palestine. Okay, sure, no problem. However, it goes wrong when they force people out of Palestine. If you deny that Israel did force Palestinians from their homes, I will not get into further argument with you.

[Furunculus]

how many of those 'civilians' job was holding a kalshnikov or making bombs?