Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Tribesman]

So? They still want to kill jews, jews don't want to be killed, tada.

So ? people elected to the knesset still want to kill arabs , arabs don't want to be killed , tada .

So is that an arguement you are presenting or is it an overused wornout sieve ?

[Fragony]

So ? people elected to the knesset still want to kill arabs , arabs don't want to be killed , tada .

So is that an arguement you are presenting or is it an overused wornout sieve ?

If Israel wanted arabs dead they would be dead. I find it so incredibly unfair, it's blaming Israel for not being helpless, maybe they should just roll over?

[Tribesman]

No it is not blaming Israel for not being defenceless , its blaming Israel for trying the same old crap again when they know it doesn't work .
And not only do they know it doesn't work , they know it is counterproductive ...that is really an accurate definition of being a stupid idiot isn't it

[Fragony]

No it is not blaming Israel for not being defenceless , its blaming Israel for trying the same old crap again when they know it doesn't work .

What do you suggest they do? If they do nothing it will be seen as weakness, this is never going to stop it's the frontline of a much bigger battle, these are indeed surgical strikes.

[Hax]

If Israel wanted arabs dead they would be dead.

Hey, wasn't this what they tried to do in Lebanon back in the day? During Hezbollah's defense of Lebanon? In 2006, more Lebanese civilians were killed than Israeli.

So? They still want to kill jews, jews don't want to be killed, tada.

Actually, Hamas itself describes their conflict with Israel as being political, and not religious or anti-semitic.

[Fragony]

Actually, Hamas itself describes their conflict with Israel as being political, and not religious or anti-semitic.

Oh, do they. Must be that then they describe it as such after all. I say deal with it good they have had their chance but lack the self-restraint for peace, the desire to kill is too strong.

and stay down

[Hax]

So, you're basically saying we shouldn't trust Hamas on what they say? I think that make this untruthful as well:

Hamas police spokesman Ehad Ghussein said about 140 Hamas security forces were killed.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

No it is not blaming Israel for not being defenceless , its blaming Israel for trying the same old crap again when they know it doesn't work .
And not only do they know it doesn't work , they know it is counterproductive ...that is really an accurate definition of being a stupid idiot isn't it

This is a telling statement.

Israel's current actions do little save to preserve and enhance the militant components of Hamas (and other hardliners) without resolving the issue. Repeating an unsuccessful solution is not likely to work -- Tribes makes a good point here.

It has been my belief for some time that the "warlords" among Hamas and the Palestinians (and possibly among the Israeli right as well) enjoy wielding the power of the warlord. They have a vested interest in maintaining the conflict, not winning it outright. So, if Israel is establishing a period of quiessence, then rockets will be sent off to encourage precisely the response they've gotten.


Israel's choices to actually RESOLVE the conflict must be substantially different than those employed to date, since those employed to date haven't resolved the issue. Consider:

1. Bring about a constitutional convention to create a new state -- Palestine -- in which all participate equally. This will result in Jews being a significant minority but return political control to arab-descent Palestinians.

2. Israel ceases all counter-attacks of any kind, utilizing only passive defense techniques such as metal detectors and the like. It then accepts the ongoing civilian and military casualties among Israelis until world opinion turns and the Palestinians themselves are sickened by their own actions.

3. Israel mobilizes all armed forces, turning on Gaza, Jerusalem, and the West Bank in turn and eradicates (by ejection or extermination) all Palestinian presence. It would then likely have to close its borders almost entirely for several years as it would be a pariah state.

4. Israel petitions to be annexed by some other nation, perhaps the USA, and petitions to become a state or two after status as a territory.


So what do you think?


Please note, my key point is -- as Tribes pithily observed -- the current regimen of answers is NOT doing it; something new must be tried. I myself lack the wisdom to know what the best course for Israel should be -- and I can hardly be viewed as having a direct stake in the matter.

[Dutch_guy]

What is the sensible process to resolution?
if the resolution what you are talking about is peace between arab and jew, then i think that if the arabs would lay down all arms against israel, accept israel as a country, we would do the same, and maybe even thrive together as allies.

One could argue that Israel, being something like a Western country, should make the first move there. Not bombing the hell out of one of the most densly populated area's in the world in response to a mortar attack might be a good start. Current technology doesn't allow for surgical strikes in such a densly populated area, and those mortar attacks are crude, ineffective and kill more Hamas than Israeli civilians. Honestly, I don't see what Olmert was trying to achieve other than pure vengeance and extending his time in office. As anyone can judge just by looking back in history that this won't stop the mortar/missle attacks, and won't make the people less inclined not to vote Hamas next elections. And the latter should be what Israel should try to achieve, as it's a democratic country itself.

[Fragony]

One could argue that Israel, being something like a Western country, should make the first move there. Not bombing the hell out of one of the most densly populated area's in the world in response to a mortar attack might be a good start.

Not just one mortar attack there have been hundreds of attacks what do these idiots expect? If they can't control their primitive bloodlust c'est ca. There seemingly is no end to the patience of Israel Hamas never stops attacking them no matter what Israel does, 100% behind our nosy muca's screw the hatebeards over good this time, shalome

[Marshal Murat]

So you are comparing Israels actions to a crazed dictator who thought he was on a mission from god .
Thats errrrr.....thats anti-semetism that is

I was just comparing Israeli tactics to those enacted by Cromwell in Ireland. As I understand it, he burned all the crops, destroyed all the villages, forcing the Irish to come under his control.
Thanks for the laughs though.

[tibilicus]

Not just one mortar attack there have been hundreds of attacks what do these idiots expect? If they can't control their primitive bloodlust c'est ca. There seemingly is no end to the patience of Israel Hamas never stops attacking them no matter what Israel does, 100% behind our nosy muca's screw the hatebeards over good this time, shalome

You say that but then what do you expect? Let Israel choose Gazas government and have the will and the freedom of the people crushed by Israeli tyrants?

"Freedom needs a soldier" and in this case hamas happen to be those soldiers.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Hamas never stops attacking them no matter what Israel does, 100% behind our nosy muca's screw the hatebeards over good this time, shalome

Fragony, your capacity for highlighting the very point and then missing it spectacularly is only rivalled by your astoundingly brilliant irony. (You do know what shalom means?)

I know the battle lines here in the Backroom are well and truly drawn on this issue, but in the spirit of optimism that Seamus advanced so well, I submit a piece by Robert Fisk - who illustrates that justice is founded on the principle of proportionality. Tribesman is quite right to argue that a change of strategy is in the best interests of Israel.

Yes, Israel deserves security. But these bloodbaths will not bring it. Not since 1948 have air raids protected Israel. Israel has bombed Lebanon thousands of times since 1975 and not one has eliminated "terrorism". So what was the reaction last night? The Israelis threaten ground attacks. Hamas waits for another battle. Our Western politicians crouch in their funk holes. And somewhere to the east – in a cave? a basement? on a mountainside? – a well-known man in a turban smiles.

Seamus, to attempt a reply to your post would find me somewhat restricted. I have noted many times that since Israel is politically incapable of getting itself out of this rut (by its coalition style governments dependent on the lunatic fringe alone) only the United States has the power to force the ritual slaughter to end. The only way that will happen is if the Palestinians force their leadership to adopt non-violence as the only way to fight back. Sadly, like peoples across the world when attacked, relying on men of violence to retaliate is all too easy.

Option 2 of your list is the only one I can see working - Israel must continue as a democratic state - but the demonisation of the Palestinians is a very useful political tool, and so will not be given up. Just as terrified Palestinians vote for Hamas to "defend" them, terrified Israelis tend to vote for whichever party looks the most hawkish. Nonetheless, as a relatively mature democracy, and the over-whelming military power, it is much more likely the Israelis will conclude that peace will require some forbearance. That day however, appears a very, very long way off. Nonetheless, I daresay that if the US tired of the charade and threatened to withdraw aid and patience, they might come to this conclusion as a matter of urgency.