Some joyous tidings from Israel

[tibilicus]

Oh, the poor oppressed Palestinian civilians being forced to kill evil Israelis who are egged on by the even more evil American Empire...

Come off it. Hamas refuses to renew a ceasefire and shells Israeli towns. Israel responds by killing (mostly) Hamas militants, and this according to Hamas.

Oh but it was all so different when it was the IRA wasn't it?

America didn't take such a hard line then and I wonder why..

[Marshal Murat]

Oh but it was all so different when it was the IRA wasn't it?

America didn't take such a hard line then and I wonder why..

The IRA had completely different goals, objectives, and reasoning behind their war in Ireland. Read-up.

[Guildenstern]

Most of the dead were Hamas security and police forces, but many were also civilians, including children. Gaza hospitals are overwhelmed with the casualties. The strikes were expected for Sunday, but were done earlier to increase casualties, in what is now clearly the first step to escalation of the conflict. Given how crowded Gaza is, it is effectively a city of one million people, avoiding civilian casualties is practically impossible.

A bombing attack like this can do a fair bit of damage, as it did, but Hamas will now disperse its people and assets, and future bombings will be less effective. The leaders killed will be replaced, and not by moderates. The missile attacks (which are scary but essentially ineffective) will continue. Gazans will hate Israelis even more. To get anything "meaningful" accomplished Israel has to invade on foot because they have to search for the missiles and the missile production centers.

But when they do that, they put themselves at risk because Hamas has destroyed Israeli tanks in the past...

[tibilicus]

The IRA had completely different goals, objectives, and reasoning behind their war in Ireland. Read-up.

Re unification of Northern Ireland with the republic of Ireland even though the majority of people in Northern Ireland remained unionists? Killing innocent civilians in attempts to get their point across?

And imagine what would of happened if the British reacted like Israel is now. After bloody Sunday there were world wide protests and the Brits were labelled murderers. The same can be said for the death of Bobby Sands there were huge protests then as well and again the British were made to look like criminals.

The only difference is the IRA were seen as good ol' Irish fighting the repressive British whilst instead Hamas are seen as Muslim extremists who want to cause the apocalypse.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter? In the case of the IRA who were perceived by the west as freedom fighters and Hamas who are seen in the eyes of the west as terrorists.

[Hooahguy]

herr adolf must be laughing his arse off from Hell. A shame for a people who were the victims of a holocaust...

great. now you are comparing israelis to nazis. i take offense at this.

more to come from me.

[Hooahguy]

Most of the dead were Hamas security and police forces, but many were also civilians, including children. Gaza hospitals are overwhelmed with the casualties. The strikes were expected for Sunday, but were done earlier to increase casualties, in what is now clearly the first step to escalation of the conflict. Given how crowded Gaza is, it is effectively a city of one million people, avoiding civilian casualties is practically impossible.

A bombing attack like this can do a fair bit of damage, as it did, but Hamas will now disperse its people and assets, and future bombings will be less effective. The leaders killed will be replaced, and not by moderates. The missile attacks (which are scary but essentially ineffective) will continue. Gazans will hate Israelis even more. To get anything "meaningful" accomplished Israel has to invade on foot because they have to search for the missiles and the missile production centers.

But when they do that, they put themselves at risk because Hamas has destroyed Israeli tanks in the past...

true. war has casualties. civilian casualties are horrible to inflict, but sometimes its unavoidable and sometimes even necessary.

to quote from David Kenyon Webster (im paraphrasing here), from the book Parachute Infantry:

"i dont know why you want this war to be over so fast. we need to bring the war to the germans, fight in their streets, bomb their houses and leave dead in the streets. unless we show them how cruel war is, they will always have hate in them, and this will create the next war."

these people want aid, but dont want to stop the tyrants and maniacs who are controlling them. until they throw off the maniacs, they will have to suffer.
this is israels strategy. hopefully the Palestinians in gaza will elect a peaceful government, then peace can reign. but as long as hamas is in power, nothing doing.

also, AFAIK, israel isnt deliberately targeting civilians, or at least not all the time. they are targeting hamas, who hides among civilians. in this case, civilian deaths are unavoidable.
and precision bombing isnt always precise.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Okay, another question for the pro-intifada folks - why would you support Hamas when, in response to this attack they are going to attack even more civilians in Israel? Why is just stopping their constant terrorist attacks such an impossibility to even consider?

CR

[Jolt]

This is not about of who has the most justification to bomb other people, it's about that they neither have justification. You don't have justification when it comes to killing innocents.

While I have been agreeing with defending the Palestinians all this time, I do believe that there is no political will for the Hamas to cope with the present situation, that Israel will stay in the map. Having said that, Hamas have brought the attack on themselves, I find myself agreeing with this intervention. If I was in Livni's office, I'd order the strike as well. I think it's about time Hamas takes the peaceful route, and it isn't with rockets firing off and no retaliation that we're going to get anywhere. I think Israel needs to make clear to Hamas that peace, flawed as it may be, is preferable to war. And I do support the Palestinian people. Fatah is doing what's right, I think. Trying to sort out this mess and create a unified, independent, sovereign state.

[Jolt]

these people want aid, but dont want to stop the tyrants and maniacs who are controlling them. until they throw off the maniacs, they will have to suffer.
this is israels strategy. hopefully the Palestinians in gaza will elect a peaceful government, then peace can reign. but as long as hamas is in power, nothing doing.

also, AFAIK, israel isnt deliberately targeting civilians, or at least not all the time. they are targeting hamas, who hides among civilians. in this case, civilian deaths are unavoidable.
and precision bombing isnt always precise.

Pityfully, I myself agreeing with this. Hamas is as intransigent as it gets and allowed attacks on Israeli civilians while Israel didn't do any such thing. The Gaza people must elect Fatah for this cycle of wars to (hopefully) change for good.

[Kekvit Irae]

[IMGx]https://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5527/hitandmissgse1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMGx]https://img224.imageshack.us/img224/5452/gunsgqt2.jpg[/IMG]

I admit, I giggled.

[FactionHeir]

Maybe if the "international" community had actually acknowledged the fair election win by Hamas a few years back rather than block them off completely because they didn't like the result of a democratic election, things would have been different.
And stopping now would just show weakness - something their leadership cannot afford at this point when the populace is out for revenge.

Disproportionate force was used, let's face it, and continuing to bomb through the night after first calls for a cease fire is not helping.

[Tribesman]

until they throw off the maniacs, they will have to suffer.
this is israels strategy. hopefully the Palestinians in gaza will elect a peaceful government, then peace can reign. but as long as hamas is in power, nothing doing.

Its funny , thats what they said all the time with the PLO , then when the PLO wasn't in power they financed a coup and gave them guns .

BTW

they will have to suffer.
this is israels strategy.

Errr.....thats collective punishment isn't it ? thats illegal isn't it ?
which is hilarious when you think good old uncle adolf really loved the old collective punishment but you errrrr.....

i take offense at this.

...when the obvious is stated .

So back to the obvious question in relation to the main topic .
Is Israels bombing strategy going to work ?
Not bloody likely . Hamas will remain in Gaza and probably extend their level of support in the West Bank .
So once again Israel repeats its mistakes and not only fails to win militarily it gets another bloody big PR disaster for good measure .
But hey elections coming up so you gotta just bomb something eh

[rasoforos]

great. now you are comparing israelis to nazis. i take offense at this.

I m not comparing. I am saying that from a people that survived a holocaust I would expect greater sensitivity about the loss of innocent human life as a punitive measure. I come from a place were Jewish people were practically decimated by Nazis and never recovered (Thessaloniki), their cultural influence is almost lost. I know their loss. I m not saying Israelis act as Nazis but I would expect them to act more humane since they suffered from such courses of action.

I never saw Israel blowing up a whole illegal settlement and there are criminal elements on many of them too.

Hitler was doing the exact same thing you know. Whenever a German patrol was killed by resistance in Greece, the Nazis would go to the nearest village and execute 20 times the people who died. Do you think it helped the Nazis? As will happen with the attack in Gaza, a 1000 angry people who lost friends and relatives will join Hamas....

[Furunculus]

how many of those 'civilians' job was holding a kalshnikov or making bombs?

[Furunculus]

Oh but it was all so different when it was the IRA wasn't it?

America didn't take such a hard line then and I wonder why..

i supported killing terrorists then too.

america's tacit support kept their funding going much longer than it should have.

[Tribesman]

i supported terrorists then too.

Britains tacit support kept their funding going much longer than it should have.

Fixed it for ya .

[Fragony]

Maybe if the "international" community had actually acknowledged the fair election win by Hamas a few years back rather than block them off completely because they didn't like the result of a democratic election, things would have been different.
And stopping now would just show weakness - something their leadership cannot afford at this point when the populace is out for revenge.

Disproportionate force was used, let's face it, and continuing to bomb through the night after first calls for a cease fire is not helping.

The fact that hamas was elected makes me kinda less concerned about civilians. This is what they wanted.

[naut]

I always find it humourous when people try to compare Hamas/Futah/Hezbolah with the IRA. Apples and oranges, people.

The fact that hamas was elected makes me kinda less concerned about civilians. This is what they wanted.

The fact that the Knesset is elected makes me less concerned about civilians. This is what they wanted. Isn't it?

Two can play at that game.

[Samurai Waki]

I hate thinking it, but I just don't really see the point of caring anymore. Its like neither side will listen to reason, instead they are so entrenched in their own ignorance that its pointless to even feel sorry for them anymore. I feel terrible for any innocent that has to put up with the completely insane politics of that region.

[Tribesman]

The fact that hamas was elected makes me kinda less concerned about civilians. This is what they wanted.

An interesting idea , people elected Hamas because they wanted to be bombed not because Hamas was itself running food programs , healthcare and social welfare payments while the principle opposition had sunk to new levels of corruption .
Errrrr...hold on , your arguement doesn't seem to hold any water Frag as it seems to be kinda full of great big holes .

[Fragony]

An interesting idea , people elected Hamas because they wanted to be bombed not because Hamas was itself running food programs , healthcare and social welfare payments while the principle opposition had sunk to new levels of corruption .

So? They still want to kill jews, jews don't want to be killed, tada.

[Tribesman]

So? They still want to kill jews, jews don't want to be killed, tada.

So ? people elected to the knesset still want to kill arabs , arabs don't want to be killed , tada .

So is that an arguement you are presenting or is it an overused wornout sieve ?

[Fragony]

So ? people elected to the knesset still want to kill arabs , arabs don't want to be killed , tada .

So is that an arguement you are presenting or is it an overused wornout sieve ?

If Israel wanted arabs dead they would be dead. I find it so incredibly unfair, it's blaming Israel for not being helpless, maybe they should just roll over?

[Tribesman]

No it is not blaming Israel for not being defenceless , its blaming Israel for trying the same old crap again when they know it doesn't work .
And not only do they know it doesn't work , they know it is counterproductive ...that is really an accurate definition of being a stupid idiot isn't it

[Fragony]

No it is not blaming Israel for not being defenceless , its blaming Israel for trying the same old crap again when they know it doesn't work .

What do you suggest they do? If they do nothing it will be seen as weakness, this is never going to stop it's the frontline of a much bigger battle, these are indeed surgical strikes.

[Hax]

If Israel wanted arabs dead they would be dead.

Hey, wasn't this what they tried to do in Lebanon back in the day? During Hezbollah's defense of Lebanon? In 2006, more Lebanese civilians were killed than Israeli.

So? They still want to kill jews, jews don't want to be killed, tada.

Actually, Hamas itself describes their conflict with Israel as being political, and not religious or anti-semitic.

[Fragony]

Actually, Hamas itself describes their conflict with Israel as being political, and not religious or anti-semitic.

Oh, do they. Must be that then they describe it as such after all. I say deal with it good they have had their chance but lack the self-restraint for peace, the desire to kill is too strong.

and stay down

[Hax]

So, you're basically saying we shouldn't trust Hamas on what they say? I think that make this untruthful as well:

Hamas police spokesman Ehad Ghussein said about 140 Hamas security forces were killed.

[tibilicus]

It will all end badly anyway, only the Gaza civilians will suffer.

Look what happened in Lebanon. The Israeli military which has been pay rolled and funded in billions by the US couldn't defeat Hezboulla on the ground who were armed with a couple of AK's.

To be honest I might care a bit more for Israel if they actually tried to get along with there Muslim neighbours but the thing is they don't. The Arab league of country's called for an agreement where by Israel would keep the land planned out In the original partition plan for Israel. Israel of course refuse and instead of meeting it's neighbours with meetings just prefer to drop bombs on them.

Also people seem to think that they some how have superior claim to the land. What you have to remember the idea of Israel and Zionism was active long before the holocaust and Jewish settlers were arriving long before then to. How I see Israel is imagine if immigrants were coming to your country then all of a sudden decided that your land was now there's because they have religious claim to it. The whole situations is just getting ridiculous.

The fact is Israel can push there weight around in the region as long as the US continues to support them, and don't get it wrong that the US are glad to do this as long as they keep their puppet in the middle east.

[Idaho]

Has Israel declared war? Has it recognised Gaza and it's government as sovereign?

No to both - therefore any 'act of war' is in fact collective punishment and not only illegal but immoral.