Some joyous tidings from Israel

[LeftEyeNine]

Ha !

Bomb the hell out of people -death toll 300, wounded surpasses 2000- and expect to "teach them a lesson".

Which planet is that of which atmosphere you're inhaling ?

Turkish air forces bombed PKK camps a couple of months ago and it was all "HEY STOP ! STOP THERE, HEY HEY HEY STOP THERE UR HURTING CİV1L1ANS !111HUMANITARIANFECES".

Once more again: The whole world is about being powerful, not righteous. Jeez, you'll even have democracy-cradle Euros supporting your wicked cause.

For ****'s sake, they are using cell phones' lights to make surgeries over there right now while you have your console's gamepad in your hand.

I'm truly disgusted of you and your sense telling that "I am human, you are not".

[tibilicus]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7803711.stm

Israel was fighting a "war to the bitter end" against Hamas, its defence chief said.

All this is just another political tool to try and keep the ruling Israeli party in power. if they fail then there will be an even more right wing party in power. Judging by the scenes here in England at the Israeli embassy the whole world right now pretty much hates their guts.

To be honest Israel has pretty much made one bad move after one bad move since the state was born. You look on t.v and see Israel and it's nice modern housing whilst 5 miles over the border you see Palestinians who have no homes being killed for no crime other than being in "Israel's land". The other attacks by Israel before were hardly justified but this is the last straw.

The plan for an Israeli state failed from day one and here it is over 60 years later still failing today.

[Hooahguy]

The plan for an Israeli state failed from day one and here it is over 60 years later still failing today.

i dont see how it was a complete failure. maybe in foreign relations its a failure, but technologically its pretty high up there, and weve done a lot with the land. it used to be barren wastelands for the most of it. have you seen pics of what is now Tel-Aviv back in the 1880s? its pretty astonishing how much its grown.

for a country to fail it literally has to fail completely, as in the entire country is in shambles. i dont see that.

[Banquo's Ghost]

But of course, I may be an idiot but I am not uneducatd. This is a good thing, about time that hamas-trash is getting what it deserves, and that would be to be very much dead and most of all not alive.

Just because it's different doesn't mean it isn't love. With Hamas gone we can start fixing things.

I didn't mean to imply you are uneducated, but the irony of your statement was too much to pass up. Nonetheless, I would agree with you about Hamas, but this is not the way to get rid of them. Indeed, it simply creates more radicals, whatever they choose to call themselves. No, they need to be marginalised - which means someone else ought to be doing the healthcare, water supplies, food and education etc.

No, but israel may wish to bargain from a position of power, much as Britian did with the IRA, (BG may disagree with me here).

I have no intention of disagreeing with you - we differed a little on the scale of the IRA's infiltration, but not the fact of it. In fact you illustrate the point for this thread perfectly: from a position of power, the British government realised it could not defeat the IRA utterly (so that it posed no future threat of any sort) or any of its splinter groups. The final defeat of violent republicanism had to come by engaging them in peaceful negotiation - to sit down with the men of terror and bring them into the mainstream. Just as the British had done with those terrorists in Palestine that wished to create the state of Israel.

I submit that Israel is already in a position of great power from which to start substantive negotiations. The first realisation that needs to dawn is that they will never completely defeat the terrorists through military means.

The plan for an Israeli state failed from day one and here it is over 60 years later still failing today.

On the contrary, Israel is a vibrant and civilised society, and rather too democratic for its own good. Compared to its neighbours - who rather ill-advisedly have tried on numerous occasions to destroy it - it is a model of liberal practice and thought.

You make the mistake of tarring all Israelis with the same brush. There are many who deplore the treatment of Palestinians and work very hard to better the situation. There are those who go so far as to refuse military service to make their point. The challenge for Israel is that like may democracies, conservatives and liberals are pretty much present in equivalent numbers. That means that the Knesset is often divided - and thus the influential hard-line religious parties (influence derived from very few seats, but the difference between winning and losing a vote of confidence) hold inordinate power.

Remember that the last Prime Minister to have made real progress to peace was assassinated by one of these fringe loonies. That's a hard legacy for any politician to ignore.

[Hooahguy]

You make the mistake of tarring all Israelis with the same brush. There are many who deplore the treatment of Palestinians and work very hard to better the situation. There are those who go so far as to refuse military service to make their point. The challenge for Israel is that like may democracies, conservatives and liberals are pretty much present in equivalent numbers. That means that the Knesset is often divided - and thus the influential hard-line religious parties (influence derived from very few seats, but the difference between winning and losing a vote of confidence) hold inordinate power.

agreed. remember when israel pulled all the settlers out of gaza? there were entire army units that refused to take part in forcing the settlers out.

[Banquo's Ghost]

agreed. remember when israel pulled all the settlers out of gaza? there were entire army units that refused to take part in forcing the settlers out.

That's not quite my point.

Forcing the settlers to comply with the terms of the withdrawal was seen as a betrayal by the hard right. I was referring to the many soldiers of the IDF who have refused to serve in operations to oppress the Palestinians, not illegal Israeli settlers.

Anyway, here's another excellent and thoughtful commentator to help us reflect.

Who, in the end, truly speaks for the Gazans?

Those who are willing, just once, to lay down the axes they are accustomed to grinding, and who accurately and with both passion and objectivity describe the suffering and the violence on both sides of the border.

Those who truly speak for the Gazans are those who are willing to grant the humanity of Israeli Jews as well, and who are seeking, in a sincere effort to move past revenge and blind tribalism, a common future for peoples whom fate has somehow decreed, will continue to be neighbors.

[Tribesman]

have you seen pics of what is now Tel-Aviv back in the 1880s? its pretty astonishing how much its grown.

Have you seen pics of what is now Milton Keynes back in the 1880s ?

Tribesman is quite right to argue that a change of strategy is in the best interests of Israel.

Or to paraphrase a quote from the media .
"If you are unable to kill the wolf don't be a prick and pull its tail"

The size of the 'original' Israel is founded on fairly limited and unreliable religious literary references.

Why bother Idaho , even ignoring that he got both the biblical and current borders wrong surely the approach should be that if god gave the land to the tribes and 10 of them don't exist then the only land they can claim from god is that of the two tribes that got given land

[tibilicus]

On the contrary, Israel is a vibrant and civilised society, and rather too democratic for its own good. Compared to its neighbours - who rather ill-advisedly have tried on numerous occasions to destroy it - it is a model of liberal practice and thought.

You make the mistake of tarring all Israelis with the same brush. There are many who deplore the treatment of Palestinians and work very hard to better the situation. There are those who go so far as to refuse military service to make their point. The challenge for Israel is that like may democracies, conservatives and liberals are pretty much present in equivalent numbers. That means that the Knesset is often divided - and thus the influential hard-line religious parties (influence derived from very few seats, but the difference between winning and losing a vote of confidence) hold inordinate power.

Sorry I will try and explain what I meant by my earlier statement. I wasn't trying to argue Israel is uncivilized or anything like that but when I say the "Israeli state failed" I mean to concept of sticking a new country right in the centre of a part of the world governed by religion. It didn't help that the new state was also based on a religion which had a long feud dating century's with the religion already established in the region. I also know that not all Israelis are land grabbing war lovers but I'm referring the the establishment as a whole. Even Israel's "centre" party is very anti-Palestine and well the more right wing party's are even worse. I'm also right in presuming though that the orthodox Jews in Israel are predominantly anti-Palestine and they make up a majority of the population as I understood it.

[Marshal Murat]

It didn't help that the new state was also based on a religion which had a long feud dating century's with the religion already established in the region.

Actually, the Jewish people have had the best relations with Islamic nations. When the Spanish Catholics persecuted Jews, they fled to the Ottomans or Mamlukes. Islamic nations have always previously been Jewish havens from Christian persecution.

The only problems have arisen when the surrounding Muslim nations attacked Israel and, as you can tell by this thread, Jews in general. The wars became religious, fighting over "Jerusalem" and the "Holy Land" rather than about who will live where, peacefully. With the rise of extremist Muslim sects, this war has been taken to a new and disgusting level of death, killing, and murder.
Especially in Lebanon.
Lebanon was supposed to be a Christian haven, but the result was the polygot nation, with Christian, Druze, Jewish, and Muslim militias fighting it out, butchering one another for no other purpose than religion and land.

[Hooahguy]

thank you Marshal Murat. my thoughts exactly.

[Jolt]

The only problems have arisen when the surrounding Muslim nations attacked Israel and, as you can tell by this thread, Jews in general.

Wrong. The attacks were a consequence, not a cause. The problems began when the UN created a country where it shouldn't have created, and illegitimately, because by doing so, they'd have to create a bucketload more of countries whose people also want independence. If, instead of Israel, there had been a joint Arab-Jew Palestine, then there would have been no attack. But the jews wanted a country of their own, where they wouldn't have to share power with the arabs.

[Idaho]

Israel is an apartheid state founded on ethnic cleansing. On top of which it is aggressive and expansionist and has killed over 3000 Palestinians in the last few years. It isn't that suprising that it gets a hundred or so casualties from Palestinian attacks. They are just lucky in their enemies. The Palestinian strategy is stuck in a losing rut.

[Husar]

I'm truly disgusted of you and your sense telling that "I am human, you are not".

But we are.

Once more again: The whole world is about being powerful, not righteous. Jeez, you'll even have democracy-cradle Euros supporting your wicked cause.

Yes, but some people actually make an effort to improve things and some even call them heros *cough* Atatürk *cough*, yet you come here and say we should appreciate the status quo more and not try to change things for the better.

For ****'s sake, they are using cell phones' lights to make surgeries over there right now while you have your console's gamepad in your hand.

I bet many of them wish they could switch to having a console controller in their hand instead of being in that "operating room", from what I quoted before you sound like you think it's fine when they can't?

[LeftEyeNine]

Husar, are you on a deserted island ? You sound quite alienated.

[Ironside]

Something that actually seems to be new is that appearently Egypt, Saudi-Arabia, PLO and Jordan has changed the tone versus Hamas (from stop the aggression Israel, to stop the aggression both of you).

Thoughts?

Reduced support from Egypt means that the smuggling will go down and that also seems to been a target.

[Hooahguy]

i dont think that hamas nor israel will heed. the arab states around them havent supported either side much at all.

[Vladimir]

i dont think that hamas nor israel will heed. the arab states around them havent supported either side much at all.

Are you serious? So do you believe Hezbollah is receiving foreign support and Hamass (yes I spelled them Ham Ass) is not? How do you think Hamass acquires the resources to construct and launch all their rockets and mortars?

[Hooahguy]

no, i just think that after years of neglect (in terms of aid, not weapons) from other arab states, the palestinians wont want to listen to those countries. and AFAIK, iran is the main supplier of weapons for those two anyhow.

and expecting israel to listen to them is just a bit far-fetched.

[Ironside]

no, i just think that after years of neglect (in terms of aid, not weapons) from other arab states, the palestinians wont want to listen to those countries. and AFAIK, iran is the main supplier of weapons for those two anyhow.

and expecting israel to listen to them is just a bit far-fetched.

I was more refering to that the tone of rethoric has changed in thier standard response for about any major Israeli operation, not that they got enough influence to make someone listen to the response.

How exactly do you think the Iranian arms end up at Hamas? Teleportation? Or perhaps smuggling through a certain border?