Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Hooahguy]

As far as I can tell, hooahguy is right in this aspect. I can find very little about oppression concerning Muslims in Israel, though it might have changed over the last ten (?) years.

actually it changed none. muslims still have full right to worship.

[Hax]

a few years ago Amnesty International condemned Israel for destroying the house of a known terrorist leader. afterwards, they went to the site, got the real story, and found out that no one was in the house and israel found valuable info in the house regarding future suicide plots and was able to foil them.
see?

hooahguy, can you back that up with any links or something of the like? It's really easy to say that they did this and that.

[Hooahguy]

hooahguy, can you back that up with any links or something of the like? It's really easy to say that they did this and that.

hold. ill quote from a book that ill get from my library downstairs....

EDIT: A Time for Truth, Page 103-104.
sorry no link.

when i have time ill get the exact quote.

[KarlXII]

hold. ill quote from a book that ill get from my library downstairs....

This guy does his own research, fellas.

[KarlXII]

Are you referring to Sheik Ahmed Yassin?

[Hooahguy]

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried .

hm. so i guess that means that the palestinians are not responsible for the breaking of numerous treaties?

in may of 2001, Sharon ordered a ceasefire for all israeli troops agaisnt palestinian terrorists. you wanna know how it was met? with a huge increase of palestinian violence!

so much for all of the palestinians wanting peace....

[KarlXII]

i did not say that you couldnt have opinion.s i dint not say that at all. i said the way to have the FAIREST opionion is to go to the place of conflict.

I don't think so. Go to Israel and you will more than likely recieve a very pro-Israeli stance. Go to the Gaza strip and you will recieve a very pro-Palestinian stance. The only way I see is United Nations going in to investigate (They tried that, but Israel turned him down )

[Hooahguy]

I don't think so. Go to Israel and you will more than likely recieve a very pro-Israeli stance. Go to the Gaza strip and you will recieve a very pro-Palestinian stance. The only way I see is United Nations going in to investigate (They tried that, but Israel turned him down )

the UN? haha! do i have stories for you....
the UN is a decidedly anti-israel institution. israel knows that. the only thing that will result from yet another visit is another resolution agaisnt israel.
why should they make things harder for themselves?

another thing i found out this weekend studying maps of israeli jurisdiction in the west bank was that the refugee camps there are under PA control! israel has no jurisdiction as an occupier over them.
only one of them, called Shuafat.

also, the UNRWA, which helps the palestinians, is given $11 million by israel. currently, UNRWA gets only 6% of its budget from arabs states. the majority from israel.
essentially, israel is doing more than any other arab state for the palestinians.

[Hax]

I concur with SwedishFish. I don't think you can have a purely neutral view on this, as we are all biased.

hm. so i guess that means that the palestinians are not responsible for the breaking of numerous treaties?

Here, your view is flawed. You suggest that all the Palestinians are responsible for the breaking of the treaties, while in fact this could (!) be blamed on the fundamentalist Muslims. Saying that "the Palestinians" are responsible for breaking the treaties is as saying that "the Jews" are hungry for more land.

the UN is a decidedly anti-israel institution.

Look here. I don't think that the UN is anti-Israel necessarily, but for the peace in Palestina and Israel.

in may of 2001, Sharon ordered a ceasefire for all israeli troops agaisnt palestinian terrorists. you wanna know how it was met? with a huge increase of palestinian violence!

Is this what you mean?

[Tribesman]

As far as I can tell, hooahguy is right in this aspect. I can find very little about oppression concerning Muslims in Israel, though it might have changed over the last ten (?) years.

Well lets see

Institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against Israeli Arabs, non-Orthodox Jews, and other religious groups continued.

Now of course the people that wrote that could be making it up ...could you address you complaints to the US State Dept if you wish to dispute what they wrote .
But hey if you want to go past the summary in the State depts human rights reports they have another bloody big one just on religious freedom

[KarlXII]

the UN? haha! do i have stories for you....
the UN is a decidedly anti-israel institution. israel knows that. the only thing that will result from yet another visit is another resolution agaisnt israel.
why should they make things harder for themselves?

Obviously Israel is doing something wrong if the U.N. is "against" them.

Oh Hail Poor Israel! Everyone is against us!

[KarlXII]

also, the UNRWA, which helps the palestinians, is given $11 million by israel. currently, UNRWA gets only 6% of its budget from arabs states. the majority from israel.
essentially, israel is doing more than any other arab state for the palestinians.

It's also doing more to destroy it......

[Hax]

essentially, israel is doing more than any other arab state for the palestinians.

Including bombing them?

also, the UNRWA, which helps the palestinians, is given $11 million by israel. currently, UNRWA gets only 6% of its budget from arabs states. the majority from israel.

Do you have any graphs or statistics to prove this? I can only find a 5 million euro contribution by the EU, and $135,000 by the Tarek Ahmad Al-Juffali Foundation, and this on the UNRWA's site:

The Agency’s largest donors in 2007 were the United States, the European Commission, Sweden, Norway and the United Kingdom. As of 31 May 2008, the Agency's largest contributors for 2008 are the United States, the European Commission, Sweden, the United Kingdom, Norway and the Netherlands.

Israel is not even mentioned at all.
@Tribesman: I've looked up what you said, and I've found this (on the Jewish library, no less!):

The Government discriminates against non-Jews, the vast majority of which are Arabs, in the areas of employment, education, and housing. The Orr Legal Commission of Inquiry, established to investigate the 2000 police killing of 12 Israeli-Arab demonstrators, issued a final report in September 2003 noting historical, societal, and governmental discrimination against Arab citizens. In June the Government approved an interministerial committee's proposals, which included the creation of a government body to promote the Arab sector and a volunteer national civilian service program for Arab youth. These proposals were approved in attempt to address some of the Orr Commission's recommendations; however, Israeli-Arab advocacy organizations continued to criticize the Government for its failure after 4 years to indict any of the policemen involved in the 2000 events and its continued neglect of other issues of importance to the Israeli-Arab community, such as the just distribution of resources.

In civic areas in which religion is a determining criterion, such as the religious courts and centers of education, non-Orthodox Jewish institutions routinely receive less state support than their Orthodox Jewish counterparts. Additionally, National Religious (i.e., modern Orthodox, one of the country's official Jewish school systems) and Christian parochial schools complain that they receive less funding than public secular schools despite the fact that they voluntarily abide by all national curricular standards. During the period covered by this report, the two groups together took their case for equal funding to the High Court. At the end of this period, there was no decision on the case.

Government funding to the different religious sectors is disproportionate to the sectors' sizes. Non-Orthodox streams of Judaism and the non-Jewish sectors receive proportionally less funding than the Orthodox Jewish sector. According to IRAC, the equivalent of less than 1 percent of public funding for Jewish cultural activities is provided to non-Orthodox or secular organizations, and over 99 percent of the funding goes to Orthodox Jewish organizations. IRAC reports that government funding has not gone into the construction of any non-Orthodox synagogues. In 2003 the Supreme Court ruled that state funds could be used for the construction of a reform synagogue in the city of Modi'in and referred the petition to the Modi'in municipality for action. IRAC reports that the city already has several Orthodox synagogues, but none that is conservative or reform.

Government resources available to non-Orthodox Jewish and Arab public schools are proportionately less than those available to Orthodox Jewish public schools. According IRAC, about 96 percent of state funds for religious education were allocated to Orthodox or ultra-Orthodox Jewish schools. Children attending public non-Orthodox Jewish schools do not receive instruction on Judaism, and the budget for teaching Islam or Christianity in the Arab public school system is disproportionately smaller. Quality private religious schools for Israeli Arabs exist; however, parents often must pay tuition for their children to attend such schools due to inadequate government funding. Jewish private religious schools receive significant government funding in addition to philanthropic contributions from within the country and abroad, which effectively lowers the schools' tuition costs. Non-Jewish Israelis are underrepresented in the student bodies and faculties of most universities and in the higher level professional and business ranks.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

A very accurate statement there Mars
I take it the two extra words were a typo ?

I offered no opinion on whether or not it would work, I simply stated their objectives.

[KarlXII]

Israel indeed does a lot for the UNWRA.

[Tribesman]

the UN is a decidedly anti-israel institution. israel knows that.

Anti Israeli ?
Lets see .
They are against the annexation of territory through conquest because its against international law .
They are against transfering a civilian population to militarily occupied territory because its against international law .
They are against the expulsion of civilians , the demolition of their homes and the siezure of their property, because its against international law .
Well this list could go on for ages

See a pattern there Hooah ?
The UN is decidedly against Israel when it breaks international law
That is part of the charter of the UN
The second part of the Charter says that members have to follow the law , Israel is a member but doesn't follow the membership rules .
So simple isn't it .
If Israel didn't constantly violate the rules of the UN the UN wouldn't constantly say Israel is breaking the rules .
So it isn't a case of the UN being anti Israel , its a case of Israel acting like a stupid idiot and getting what it deserves .

also, the UNRWA, which helps the palestinians, is given $11 million by israel. currently, UNRWA gets only 6% of its budget from arabs states. the majority from israel.
essentially, israel is doing more than any other arab state for the palestinians.

Where the hell do you get this rubbish from ?
It certainly isn't from the UNRWA financial accounts , lets see the 4th biggest contributer for the emergency program over the past 7 years is the UAE red crescent , the biggest contributing country is of course the USA which gave 108 million in 05 and 137 million in 06 .
I think what Hooah means is that israel after illegally holding on to the PAs tax income gave a very small portion of the Palestinians governments money to charity because it wouldn't give it to its owners .

Israel is not even mentioned at all.

True you can go back through the financial archives , nothing at all from Hooahs generous Israel

[Furunculus]

Malcom Rifkind on the Gaza attacks:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/4...ian-state.html

[Tribesman]

Hey Furunculus Rifkinds headline needs changing .....

Expanding illegal settlements block the birth of a Palestinian state

As for balance he cannot talk about Israel creating conditions on the ground without talking about Israel creating conditions on the ground .

[KukriKhan]

... Israel has tried this before , it doesn't work . They tried it again in Lebanon where they launched thousands of rockets thousands of bombs and thousands of shells , it achieved nothing apart from making Israel look stupid and weak while cementing Hezballahs grip on the territory .

The Second Israel v Lebanon War ended September 2006. How many rockets have been fired from Lebanon into Israel since then?

[LeftEyeNine]

[speculation]

This is the introductory section of an Iran-oriented master plan.

George W. Bush, in his weekly radio message said that "they have contributed 85$ to UN this week". Israel stresses that they have amassed at Lebanon border which is a clear implication of a preparation against Hizbollah, hence Iran. Also Mr. Bush had spoken of the "monitoring of smuggling activities" before Israel's ground operation took place.

I'll be so happy to end up as speculating bullflowers once they don't find ammunition passed within Iran's promised aid all of a sudden (!) or some Hizbollah (not Hamas) suicide bomber does not blow up a bus in Tel-Aviv in the following days (!).

Let's hope that USA does not feed on war again.

Let me end up as a conspi-wit smartass who was utterly wrong at imagining these to be happening.

I really do.

[/speculation]

[Hooahguy]

@Tribesman: I've looked up what you said, and I've found this (on the Jewish library, no less!):

um, link?

[Tribesman]

The Second Israel v Lebanon War ended September 2006. How many rockets have been fired from Lebanon into Israel since then?

What were the objectives of the war Kukri ?
Leaving aside that the Israeli government commision said that Israel had failed in its objectives what were those objectives .
Get back the soldiers , yes they got their bodies in exchange for prisoners , the soldiers were kidnapped to exchange for prisoners , that looks like a Hezballah win doesn't it .
To destroy the military capabilities of Hezballah , yeah right , they completely underestimated the capabilities and not only did the attack fail but it strengthened them and increased their support , while Israel was pleading that it was running out of bombs the terrorists were increasing their number of rocket launches .
To create a wedge between the government and people of Lebanon and Hezballah . wow what sort of idiot thought that bombing the hell out of the people would make them blame the terrorists more thaan they blamed Israel And only in August did the western backed anti hezballah government do a complete about turn and say that hezballah not only didn't have to disarm it has the right to attack Israel .
Oh and of course , reach the river to control the land so Israel would be safe from rockets ...the reached the river in the end , but couldn't clear or secure the area to the south so the rockets continued .
So if you look at Israels objectives , look at Hezballahs objectives , realise that Israel failed on all counts and Hezballah got what they wanted then it clearly is a defeat for Israel without even considering that it was also a complete PR disaster for them .

How many rockets have been fired from Lebanon into Israel since then?

The last reported one was January
But oh dear the IDF are getting grief from the UN for shooting at UN bomb disposal teams...naughty Israel

um, link?

Wow for someone who claims to do his own research you do appear to be very stuck .
Use your keyboard to find the US State Dept. and the Jewish Virtual Library
Then if you get the hang of that research stuff you could expand into the multitude of Israeli based and non-Israeli based human rights groups and get lots and lots of intresting information .
Though of course you might not want to as you will learn something that shatters your illusions

[Fragony]

Just have to share this, 'peace' demonstration where the socialist party is naturally present with Harry van Bommel who is a member of the parlement, there haven't changed that much since the thirties. What you hear; "Hamas Hamas all jews on the gas"

socialists

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=PLlHPP...e=channel_page

[Hooahguy]

Wow for someone who claims to do his own research you do appear to be very stuck .
Use your keyboard to find the US State Dept. and the Jewish Virtual Library
Then if you get the hang of that research stuff you could expand into the multitude of Israeli based and non-Israeli based human rights groups and get lots and lots of intresting information .
Though of course you might not want to as you will learn something that shatters your illusions

yeah, i found it:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...e/freedom.html

since you are so into this human rights stuff, you got info on human rights violations by arabs? interesting what you will come up with.

[Furunculus]

Quote = Kukri: "How many rockets have been fired from Lebanon into Israel since then? "

The last reported one was January
But oh dear the IDF are getting grief from the UN for shooting at UN bomb disposal teams...naughty Israel

I like how you add the irrelevant second comment to cover the fact that you admit lebanon has been the source of only one rocket in the previous 12 months out of a total of 5000 plus rockets in the last couple of years.

Nice, I like how you do that.

[KukriKhan]

How many rockets have been fired from Lebanon into Israel since then?

The last reported one was January

Then my sources were wrong, and I stand corrected.* The answer I sought was "None".

Which then leads me to believe (were it true) that Israel is trying a Leb v Is 2 redux: soften by air, roll the tanks, deploy the infantry; quickly take out as much enemy military capability as possible; await a UN-brokered cease-fire, withdraw, and hey presto! No more rocket attacks.

They've got about 2 weeks time to carry out that plan, before the new guy moves into the White House, after which they might (might) get into trouble, starting off on the wrong foot with the new POTUS.

But, if "none" is wrong, that sorta blows my theory of Israel's intent out of the water.





*I used newspaper reports I found, not UNIFIL reports. I should've gone there.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

But, if "none" is wrong, that sorta blows my theory of Israel's intent out of the water.

Not really.

I like how you add the irrelevant second comment to cover the fact that you admit lebanon has been the source of only one rocket in the previous 12 months out of a total of 5000 plus rockets in the last couple of years.

Nice, I like how you do that.

[tibilicus]

Is no one else concerned that Israel are refusing to let international journalists in to Gaza?

God knows what atrocities the Israelis might try and commit. As far as I'm aware their army is made up of mostly young people who will be seeking personnel vendettas against the Muslim population.

[Tribesman]

I like how you add the irrelevant second comment to cover the fact that you admit lebanon has been the source of only one rocket in the previous 12 months out of a total of 5000 plus rockets in the last couple of years.

Who said it was only one rocket ?
BTW them 5000 rockets you talk of , were nearly all of those fired during the short war
Tell you what Furunculus , if you think you have a point go back through all the situation reports and see exactly how many rockets were fired in the years preceeding the war .
When you come back I expect you to fully understand he irrelevance of your comment .

Then my sources were wrong, and I stand corrected.* The answer I sought was "None".

If you want a source for ceasefire violations then the best source is the ceasefire monitors .
Which is an interesting source as one objective of the war from the Israeli perspective was to get rid of hezballahs missiles , yet the Israelis are now claiming to the UN that the terrorists now have over 30,000 new rockets

[rasoforos]

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...712466579.html


Its good to know that not all Israelis share such militaristic attitudes.