Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Hooahguy]

palestinian "legal advisor" gets owned.....

[Hooahguy]

This Bloomberg, is he a five-year old?

I take it that most of the people involved in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are grown up humans. Can we please stop saying "But they started!"

What is this, kindergarten with bombs and guns?

hamas did start. saying they didnt is.... i dunno what to say.
remember that bloomberg isnt mainly talking to us educated folks about the situation. hes assuming, and assuming correctly, that most people dont know much.

[Ser Clegane]

I would appreciate if the posts in this thread remained constructive.

Repetitive "Hail Israel" posts/remarks add nothing to the discussion - unless you consider trolling to be a worthwhile contribution (which I do not do).

Thanks a lot

Ser Clegane

[Hax]

hamas did start. saying they didnt is.... i dunno what to say.

Oh yes, very intelligent.

How do you ever expect to solve a problem if you just keep blaming others? Or perhaps Israel does not want to end this problem?

==========

I would appreciate if the posts in this thread remained constructive.

Repetitive "Hail Israel" posts/remarks add nothing to the discussion - unless you consider trolling to be a worthwhile contribution (which I do not do).

Thanks a lot

Ser Clegane

My apologies, Lord Clegane

[Hooahguy]

Oh yes, very intelligent.

How do you ever expect to solve a problem if you just keep blaming others? Or perhaps Israel does not want to end this problem?

i am sorry that i misread your post. as far as i could tell, you were assigning blame at israel for the situation in gaza.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

hooah:

That ends up being one of those endless chicken/egg discussions, friend. You say Hamas started this with rockets, they say the rockets were in response to X, you say X wasn't connected but a response to Y, they say Y was really a response to Q and so on.

Many outsiders respond with "a pox on both your houses" the moment they start hearing that endless loop start up.


Personally, any real "who started it" discussion probably has to go back to Joshua and the destruction of Jericho.

[tibilicus]

i am sorry that i misread your post. as far as i could tell, you were assigning blame at israel for the situation in gaza.

The fact is Israel IS responsible for the situation in Gaza. Months of economic sanctions and blockades have worn its populace down. Also if the mass immigration hadn't of happened in the first place maybe so many Palestinians wouldn't of been kicked into the most densely populated pieces of land and worlds biggest cesspool AKA Gaza. I'm not saying the Israeli people should have no land, just the fact is they have way to much land.

Of course you wouldn't understand though being on the other side of the border in your nice house surrounded by modern utilities. Or your access to modern hospital facilities as well as enough food for 3 meals a day not 3 meals a week if your lucky.

Your failure to see the other side of the coin is amazing, the little jokes you keep trying to post as well suggest you have a mainly derogatory attitude to the Palestinian people anyway hence your defiance that Israel can do no wrong.

In all due respect mate you need to see this from the other side as well. Don't get me wrong in no way do I support Hamas or their actions but the fact is this overly aggressive operation by the Israelis is bang out of order.

[Watchman]

now why dont we look at some palestinian atrocities and "special forces" like the Fedayeen.

...who were basically irregular militant gunmen, or "Tupac Armies" as I like to call all such after a sarcastic Swedish comic strip. Such are more or less the same everywhere, ie. more or less unpleasant and vicious.
Whereas the Unit 101 lot were regular troops of the state military.
See the difference ? Armies are expected to adhere to fun little things and laws that are designed to take the worst savagery and barbarism out of state-organised violence, and prone to considerable censure and bad-mouthing if they don't.

Also says something about Israeli policies I daresay.

Personally, any real "who started it" discussion probably has to go back to Joshua and the destruction of Jericho.

More like the turn Zionism took around the end of the 19th century, I'd say. That was when Jews so inclined first began moving from Europe into what is now Israel, a developement initially taken well enough by both the local inhabitants and authorities...

Things started getting pretty sour when the whole "i can haz teh Promised Land" thing got popular among the immigrants, as that for obvious reasons didn't sit very well with the other inhabitants of said region. (Particularly since they sort of weren't welcome in the scheme.) All the more so after the Arabs weighed in something pretty serious during WW1 to kick the Ottomans out, and then had the Brits renege on their promises of autonomy and w/e afterwards...
Add some escalating militancy and outright fanaticism on both sides, and it's hardly a wonder things began getting ugly in short order.

[Tribesman]

In all due respect mate you need to see this from the other side as well.

Tibilicus you are wasting your time .

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

All the more so after the Arabs weighed in something pretty serious during WW1 to kick the Ottomans out, and then had the Brits renege on their promises of autonomy and w/e afterwards...

Well, the Arabs got this, and the Israelis got this out of the Mandate of Palestine. 89,342 square km to 20,770 (and that's the modern amount).

[Tribesman]

Well, the Arabs got this, and the Israelis got this out of the Mandate of Palestine. 89,342 square km to 20,770 (and that's the modern amount).

bloody hell its like having gawain back again .
So what part of the history of Palestine is it that you don't understand Mars ?
No hold on that might take too long , what part of the history of Paleastine do you have any understanding of ?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

More like the turn Zionism took around the end of the 19th century, I'd say. That was when Jews so inclined first began moving from Europe into what is now Israel, a developement initially taken well enough by both the local inhabitants and authorities...

Things started getting pretty sour when the whole "i can haz teh Promised Land" thing got popular among the immigrants, as that for obvious reasons didn't sit very well with the other inhabitants of said region. (Particularly since they sort of weren't welcome in the scheme.) All the more so after the Arabs weighed in something pretty serious during WW1 to kick the Ottomans out, and then had the Brits renege on their promises of autonomy and w/e afterwards...
Add some escalating militancy and outright fanaticism on both sides, and it's hardly a wonder things began getting ugly in short order.

In its modern iteration you're dating it pretty well. I was only partially joking however. After roughly 400 years of semi-voluntary exile (started that way at least), Joshua led the Isrealites over the Jordan to "take back" the promised land from those selfish folk who'd decided that leaving it fallow for 4 centuries was silly.

In other words, trying to fix a "beginning of the problem" point for disputes over this stripe of land is somewhat difficult at best.

[Watchman]

Show me a plot of land in Eurasia (plus northern Africa) that hasn't been fought over quite a bit over the last, oh, three thousand years or so and I'll show you something that must be really worthelss indeed. But as of late for example Europeans and Americans have for the most part managed to refrain from murdering each other over prime real estate once - and not very long ago - contested ferociously indeed, so that's hardly the issue it it ?

There's no shortage of populations one way or another at least partially displaced from what used to be their homes, often quite recently and sometimes very long ago. (The longer the perspective you're examining, the harder it is to find a people that hasn't seized someone else's land at some point and probably after first having been pushed off their old haunts by someone else who was... you get the idea.) Most, however, aren't ATM killing rather a lot of civilians as "collateral damage" over the topic.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

bloody hell its like having gawain back again .
So what part of the history of Palestine is it that you don't understand Mars ?
No hold on that might take too long , what part of the history of Paleastine do you have any understanding of ?

Did you notice the wink, Tribsey?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Did you notice the wink, Tribsey?

He probably missed it whilst looking through the bottom of a pint glass. Slainte!

[Hooahguy]

The fact is Israel IS responsible for the situation in Gaza. Months of economic sanctions and blockades have worn its populace down. Also if the mass immigration hadn't of happened in the first place maybe so many Palestinians wouldn't of been kicked into the most densely populated pieces of land and worlds biggest cesspool AKA Gaza. I'm not saying the Israeli people should have no land, just the fact is they have way to much land.

Of course you wouldn't understand though being on the other side of the border in your nice house surrounded by modern utilities. Or your access to modern hospital facilities as well as enough food for 3 meals a day not 3 meals a week if your lucky.

Your failure to see the other side of the coin is amazing, the little jokes you keep trying to post as well suggest you have a mainly derogatory attitude to the Palestinian people anyway hence your defiance that Israel can do no wrong.

In all due respect mate you need to see this from the other side as well. Don't get me wrong in no way do I support Hamas or their actions but the fact is this overly aggressive operation by the Israelis is bang out of order.

thats funny. i think you need to see the other side as well....

[Watchman]

Grossly disproportionate response that kills a lot of reasonably innocent civilians is a grossly disproportionate response that kills a lot of reasonably innocent civilians, regardless of who's doing it.

Also Israeli SOP since the beginning; for a while now employed chiefly on opponents that can best be described as "feeble if persistent".

People may perhaps be excused if they don't exactly sympathise with that.

[Hooahguy]

Grossly disproportionate response that kills a lot of reasonably innocent civilians is a grossly disproportionate response that kills a lot of reasonably innocent civilians, regardless of who's doing it.

Also Israeli SOP since the beginning; for a while now employed chiefly on opponents that can best be described as "feeble if persistent".

People may perhaps be excused if they don't exactly sympathise with that.

now we get into the argument on what do we think an apporpriate response to being constantly hit with missiles, such as in israels case. diplomacy didnt work- now what?

[Watchman]

The longstanding Israeli SOP of leveling a couple of residential blocks as an object lesson has thus far failed to meaningfully discourage further such pinpricks, from what I can tell.

Also, diplomacy might have more effect if they were willing to actually compromise from the territorial claims even Tel Aviv must full well know are entirely unrealistic (if only because the Palestinians aren't going to accept anything less than a reasonably viable state and have little to lose ATM), but sticks to because of the domestic extremist fringe being politically too powerful for those to be abandoned.

Or maybe they're just being unreasonable bastards and honestly don't care a whit as along as the situation stays stable - they're the ones doing the main part of the kicking, after all, and the Israeli position is viable enough if rather dependent on continued American political support. I'm always willing to assume the worst of my fellow man, especially if he's in a position of power over somebody whose well-being is of little importance for him.

[tibilicus]

thats funny. i think you need to see the other side as well....

Oh really?

Well unlike you I have seen both sides and hers how it adds up.

Israel: Receives Billions of $ a year from the USA mainly to act out it's interest in the region. Many Israelis enjoy a good standard of living with access to such modern resources like the internet (yourself for example) and can guarantee relative stability in their life.

Palestine in particular Gaza: Receives sanctions because it's democratically elected leadership are classed as terrorists all because of their stance on Israel. Hamas government isn't involved in terrorist attacks. Basically people lower down its pecking order are terrorists but the people trying to govern Gaza aren't.

As mentioned Gaza one of the most densely as well as poor regions on earth is crippled by economic sanctions. Many families go hungry, many people don't have access to medical resources. Unlike Israel where modern technology is common im guessing there is roughly 3 computers for the whole of Gaza city (exaggeration obviously).

Israel then tries to justify a war brought on by itself. Due to the fact Gaza's economy is non existent the only option left is for them to fight.

What do you think Israel has been planning all these months with it's blockades? Do you think it's a coincidence this is happening just as an election is coming up in your country? Also a coincidence that the attacks come as one of the most war hungry US administrations in history is about to end? Do you honestly think the Israeli government hasn't been planning this political stunt and attack for months all for personnel gain? These plans were drawn up way before the rockets started coming over the border.
If you can honestly answer no to all those questions then maybe you should pay more attention at your nice modern Israeli school because just to clarify again, most people in Gaza don't have to opportunity to learn and your wasting it.

Another pointer as well how many civilians have died in Israel? Four is it? And now Gaza, probably well over 500 now I can't find the official figures. Most of those by the way around 80% to 85% have been innocent civilians. Nice aiming Israel.

Israel's basic objective is to remove Hamas, so what? A government which gets along with Israel can be in place? In other words a government which will bend to Israel's will so they can further their influence in the region? It worked in Egypt and Saudi Arabia so why not knock another country of the list?

In other words don't even tell me to look at the other side of the picture, I have and this is what I see.

Your quite happy to make your little Hamas jokes arnt you whilst sitting behind your computer? You couldn't care less for the little child who's starving right now, who lives in a house with no running water who just lost his whole family to one of your military strikes on "terrorists".

And you know what? He's going to grow up to hate your country's guts. And when he's older he to is going to pick up a rifle and want to kill. Do I blame that child?

Not one bit. Full circle again.

This is the reality buddy. About time you bloody well accepted it.

[Incongruous]

Israel pulled out of Gaza?
Hmmm, I wonder what all those bloody watch towers were for then...

Oh yeah! That's right shooting Palestinians!

Hamas long ago renounced its wish to destroy Israel, an announcment considered too dangerous by the mainstream media and thus glosed over, as is their continued support of the Palestinian Christian community.

Israel is a farce and so is US support for it, they are invaders and nothing more, this is yet another step towards the ultimate goal. But one which will stumble.

[Hooahguy]

Hamas long ago renounced its wish to destroy Israel, an announcment considered too dangerous by the mainstream media and thus glosed over, as is their continued support of the Palestinian Christian community.

thats funny.
look under the section "stone throwing"

[Hooahguy]

The longstanding Israeli SOP of leveling a couple of residential blocks as an object lesson has thus far failed to meaningfully discourage further such pinpricks, from what I can tell.

Also, diplomacy might have more effect if they were willing to actually compromise from the territorial claims even Tel Aviv must full well know are entirely unrealistic (if only because the Palestinians aren't going to accept anything less than a reasonably viable state and have little to lose ATM), but sticks to because of the domestic extremist fringe being politically too powerful for those to be abandoned.

Or maybe they're just being unreasonable bastards and honestly don't care a whit as along as the situation stays stable - they're the ones doing the main part of the kicking, after all, and the Israeli position is viable enough if rather dependent on continued American political support. I'm always willing to assume the worst of my fellow man, especially if he's in a position of power over somebody whose well-being is of little importance for him.

Camp Daid 2000 summit

if im not mistaken, israel offered most of the west bank and all of gaza. arafat refused.

[Watchman]

IIRC (can't be arsed to go dig through the piles of political journals I've still lying on the floor after moving waiting for the purchase of a new bookshelf) you indeed are mistaken, or at least not entirely entirely informed of the details. From what I can recall out of hand, the major issue was that Israel was basically selling them short by de facto retaining territorial ownership of a major bunch of the bigger Israeli settlements dotting the West Bank - as well as the roads connecting them, and suchlike. And it just so happens that these are wont to occupy all strategically important terrain, the best farmland, and - a very important detail for agriculture in the region - water deposits.

Anyway, some of the sticking points are covered by the Reasons for impasse part of the same article, and the article on Palestinian state.

Do recall, calling off hostilities with Israel is pretty much the exact one thing the Palestinians can offer. Israel holds pretty much all the rest of the cards (and not a few in blatant breach of international law...), so obviously the Palestinians aren't going to trade off theirs for cheap.

[Hooahguy]

Israel: Receives Billions of $ a year from the USA mainly to act out it's interest in the region. Many Israelis enjoy a good standard of living with access to such modern resources like the internet (yourself for example) and can guarantee relative stability in their life.

hm. i heard a story on NPR that said that the Palestinians got the most foreign aid in 2008. what did they do with all this money that NPR claims they have? i really dont know, but i think its a good guess that they bought more weapons.
btw, im not denying that israel gets lots of money from the US, which is understandable, because do you really expect any US president to support the same people who celebrated when 9/11 happened?

Palestine in particular Gaza: Receives sanctions because it's democratically elected leadership are classed as terrorists all because of their stance on Israel. Hamas government isn't involved in terrorist attacks. Basically people lower down its pecking order are terrorists but the people trying to govern Gaza aren't.

you honestly believe this?

Israel then tries to justify a war brought on by itself. Due to the fact Gaza's economy is non existent the only option left is for them to fight.

did you even read the article i read by Dr. David Blumenthal? i doubt you did. you will find it a few pages ago. in fact, here it is for your convenience

What do you think Israel has been planning all these months with it's blockades? Do you think it's a coincidence this is happening just as an election is coming up in your country? Also a coincidence that the attacks come as one of the most war hungry US administrations in history is about to end? Do you honestly think the Israeli government hasn't been planning this political stunt and attack for months all for personnel gain? These plans were drawn up way before the rockets started coming over the border.

"sic vis pacen, para bellum"
if you want peace, prepare for war.

Another pointer as well how many civilians have died in Israel? Four is it? And now Gaza, probably well over 500 now I can't find the official figures. Most of those by the way around 80% to 85% have been innocent civilians. Nice aiming Israel.

wrong. even hamas itself, as we said earlier in the thread, said that most of the casualties are military.
on the other hand, only civilians are being killed on the israeli side. israel isnt deliberately targeting civilians, no matter what hamas tells you. i thought with all your "looking on the other side" you would have found this, but i guess not.


btw its 5, not 4 israeli deaths.

Israel's basic objective is to remove Hamas, so what? A government which gets along with Israel can be in place? In other words a government which will bend to Israel's will so they can further their influence in the region? It worked in Egypt and Saudi Arabia so why not knock another country of the list?

you really think that both egypt and saudia arabia are puppets of israel? wow.
is it really too much for a country to not want missiles raining down on them?

In other words don't even tell me to look at the other side of the picture, I have and this is what I see.

no, clearly your anti-zionism clouds your judgement. here is a video about sderot, one of the most hit cities by hamas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im4K...e=channel_page

Your quite happy to make your little Hamas jokes arnt you whilst sitting behind your computer? You couldn't care less for the little child who's starving right now, who lives in a house with no running water who just lost his whole family to one of your military strikes on "terrorists".

whoa, whoa. hold on there, lets not get this thread get closed down by personal attacks, ok?
now, why dont you take your mind off the Palestinians and look at china, africa, and other places where real genocide and slaughter are taking place?

And you know what? He's going to grow up to hate your country's guts. And when he's older he to is going to pick up a rifle and want to kill. Do I blame that child?

its already happening i encourage you to watch the whole thing, as unbearable it may be to you.

This is the reality buddy. About time you bloody well accepted it.

i dont accept it. your hatred for the state of israel is astounding (and your denial of any Palestinian responsibility is also astounding) and i refuse to accept what you say as the truth, just as you refuse to accept what i say as the truth.

"freedom of speech is a double-edged sword"

[Watchman]

hm. i heard a story on NPR that said that the Palestinians got the most foreign aid in 2008. what did they do with all this money that NPR claims they have? i really dont know, but i think its a good guess that they bought more weapons.

More like tried to maintain some semblance of normal life and society, I'd rather imagine. Do you have any idea just how economically unviable the Palestinian Territories are in their current state...?

btw, im not denying that israel gets lots of money from the US, which is understandable, because do you really expect any US president to support the same people who celebrated when 9/11 happened?

Good job getting the causal relation backwards... why do you imagine they were only too gleeful about the US for a change getting some of the same crap they've been getting all too regularly for decades now ?

"sic vis pacen, para bellum"
if you want peace, prepare for war.

"No, I don't really see that. I find that the man who prepares for war usually also wants a war."

israel isnt deliberately targeting civilians, no matter what hamas tells you.

Given the IDF's habitual use of heavy weaponry and high explosives in densely populated residential areas, the difference is somewhat academic methinks.

[LittleGrizzly]

Intresting question for those who support over the top retaliation....

Where would britian have got if they had tried this tactic with ireland over the IRA ?

It is no surprise that missles get fired into israel when you see the state the palestinians live in

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Another pointer as well how many civilians have died in Israel? Four is it? And now Gaza, probably well over 500 now I can't find the official figures. Most of those by the way around 80% to 85% have been innocent civilians. Nice aiming Israel.

Even Hamas wasn't claiming that 80-85% were innocent civilians, so I really don't think you're taking an unbiased view of the situation. Try again.

[Tribesman]

i really dont know

Wow hooah actually wrote something right .
Then again when you look at the whole passage

hm. i heard a story on NPR that said that the Palestinians got the most foreign aid in 2008. what did they do with all this money that NPR claims they have? i really dont know, but i think its a good guess that they bought more weapons.

You see that he really doesn't know and is talking bollox again
As Isreals aid is counted in billions not millions and they really do spend it on weapons .
Its wierd isn't it , how someone can screw up on their claims about aid and then go and screw up again on their claims about aid .
Must be that strange sort of research eh .
But hey look on the bright side , at least Hooah is consistant........ consistantly wrong

[Ice]

But hey look on the bright side , at least Hooah is consistant........ consistantly wrong

You are fairly consistent yourself, Tribes.