Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Another pointer as well how many civilians have died in Israel? Four is it? And now Gaza, probably well over 500 now I can't find the official figures. Most of those by the way around 80% to 85% have been innocent civilians. Nice aiming Israel.

Even Hamas wasn't claiming that 80-85% were innocent civilians, so I really don't think you're taking an unbiased view of the situation. Try again.

[Tribesman]

i really dont know

Wow hooah actually wrote something right .
Then again when you look at the whole passage

hm. i heard a story on NPR that said that the Palestinians got the most foreign aid in 2008. what did they do with all this money that NPR claims they have? i really dont know, but i think its a good guess that they bought more weapons.

You see that he really doesn't know and is talking bollox again
As Isreals aid is counted in billions not millions and they really do spend it on weapons .
Its wierd isn't it , how someone can screw up on their claims about aid and then go and screw up again on their claims about aid .
Must be that strange sort of research eh .
But hey look on the bright side , at least Hooah is consistant........ consistantly wrong

[Ice]

But hey look on the bright side , at least Hooah is consistant........ consistantly wrong

You are fairly consistent yourself, Tribes.

[Marshal Murat]

On Hamas demands...
Reading the Wikipedia article on Hamas, specifically the "The possibility of a ceasefire with Israel" one sees some Hamas leaders calling for 1949 lines, 1967 lines, and all kinds of different requirements for Israel. It's ridiculous to try and figure out what Hamas wants, because I don't know what they want, and I don't think they know what they want.

On Hamas being legitimate...
I'm sure Hamas was elected by a majority of Palestinians. Everyone can agree on that. What we're having a problem with is the actions being attributed to Hamas. Hamas, if not having supported these rocket attacks, have allowed them to occur. They are either the murderers or those who hand the murderer the gun. They are legitimate, but their actions render them illegitimate in the eyes of many. They may "speak" for Palestinians, or they may do the speaking for them and keep them in the dark. I don't know, and you don't either. So if my country wants to throw the glove down and call Hamas terrorists, that's fine by me. They called the ANC terrorists too, but now we're recognizing them as a legitimate government not because they bullied and bombed the hell out of Johannesburg and Pretoria, but because they won it through fair elections and didn't begin the aforementioned killing.


On aid to Palestine...
US provides (and has provided) Palestine with about $85 million annually

EU plans on resuming aid to Palestine

Clearly aid has been sent to Palestine in amounts that are sufficient to create a 'stable' society if they used the money responsibly. But who wants to turn off a money valve right? That isn't to say that the money being shipped into Palestine is specifically being used to fund Hamas, it does mean that the Palestinians are doing something with the money, and it isn't the newest hospital. Besides, who really reports Iranian aid?


On feeling bad for the Palestinians...
I feel bad for the Palestinians, for the Israelis, for everyone. This plain old sucks. Trying to get that point across by whining about "us rich spoiled kids who live in splendor and opulence" not understanding what it's like to live without healthcare and running water.
So what, do I have to live in a gulag to complain about them? Maybe I should be enslaved so I can appreciate anti-slavery? I don't have to experience those things to comment on them, so why should I retract my statement about Palestinians because I can type on a computer? I have my views and they are just as valid as yours. I'm sick and tired of this gross fallacy that I need to experience something or empathize with someone before I can comment on a subject.

Guns of Gaza

“Operation Lead” began with an artful deception effort. After Hamas refused to renew the truce that had been in effect and began launching unguided rockets against Israeli cities and towns again, the terrorists expected swift retaliation. In fact, Hamas welcomed the prospect, since its leaders knew the population of Gaza was wearying of their rule and the misery it fostered. The terrorists wanted a bloody exchange to rally Palestinians behind them again.

Islamists legitimize anti-Semitism

Fighting intensified on the northern outskirts of Gaza City yesterday as a Hamas leader warned that the Islamists would kill Jewish children anywhere in the world in revenge for Israel’s devastating assault.

[LittleGrizzly]

On Hamas demands...

Hamas demands are unimportant, it is the crushing of palestinians will and spirit that causes terrorism not hamas, hamas is the result not the cause so hamas is basically unimportant in the discussion...

What is important is that the palestinians are given a fair deal, i perscribe to the 1967 lines myself, thats what will stop terrorism...

side noe it is surely a good sign that hamas members cannot agree on definitions themself, its show that democracy is alive and well when they have differing opinions on these matters. You could use any countries politicians disagreeing as an excuse otherwise...

On Hamas being legitimate...
I'm sure Hamas was elected by a majority of Palestinians. Everyone can agree on that. What we're having a problem with is the actions being attributed to Hamas. Hamas, if not having supported these rocket attacks, have allowed them to occur. They are either the murderers or those who hand the murderer the gun. They are legitimate, but their actions render them illegitimate in the eyes of many. They may "speak" for Palestinians, or they may do the speaking for them and keep them in the dark. I don't know, and you don't either. So if my country wants to throw the glove down and call Hamas terrorists, that's fine by me. They called the ANC terrorists too, but now we're recognizing them as a legitimate government not because they bullied and bombed the hell out of Johannesburg and Pretoria, but because they won it through fair elections and didn't begin the aforementioned killing.

Both countries (israel and palestine) have legitimitally elected murderers. I want my leaders to treat these terrorist goverments the same, neither deserve anything but aid if they really need it....

On aid to Palestine...

That being the paltry sum compared to that given to israel..

Clearly aid has been sent to Palestine in amounts that are sufficient to create a 'stable' society if they used the money responsibly.

If israel would allow them a viable state, then sure they could. but they don't so the point is moot...

But who wants to turn off a money valve right?

Clearly not the many palestinian millionaires, or all those luxury tents they have in the refugee camps..

Both sides have people who gain money from continuing the conflict, only the completely biased would think it is only true on one side

On feeling bad for the Palestinians...
I feel bad for the Palestinians, for the Israelis, for everyone. This plain old sucks.

Im not sure how bad i feel for both civilian populations, as one ranting israeli supporter said on radio earlier, they're bringing this on themselves by electing hamas, except its true for the israelis as well, bringing it on themselves..

I guess i feel sorry for the minoritys in both countries that want peace...

I'm sick and tired of this gross fallacy that I need to experience something or empathize with someone before I can comment on a subject.

Same here, this also applies for both sides, we can have opinions even though were rich haven't experienced terrorism and haven't had our race almost wiped out in some old peoples living memory

Operation Lead” began with an artful deception effort. After Hamas refused to renew the truce that had been in effect and began launching unguided rockets against Israeli cities and towns again, the terrorists expected swift retaliation. In fact, Hamas welcomed the prospect, since its leaders knew the population of Gaza was wearying of their rule and the misery it fostered. The terrorists wanted a bloody exchange to rally Palestinians behind them again.

This is possibly the worst reasoning for doing any military action!!!!

Why did you invade... well the enemy wanted us to... ?!

Sun Tzu would be spinning in his grave!

im not sure where you were going with that... israel should invade because hamas wanted it to ?

Fighting intensified on the northern outskirts of Gaza City yesterday as a Hamas leader warned that the Islamists would kill Jewish children anywhere in the world in revenge for Israel’s devastating assault.

Well thats a surprise.... and i suppose there where no racist black groups in response to thier treatment by whites for years....

or maybe it is common for a downtrodden people to dislike the powerful group that keeps it down... maybe it is a theme that commonly replays throughout history.... maybe it is to be expected that people will do this when they are treated badly by a group (be they whites, jews, arabs or those damn blue eyed people!)

[Fragony]

Hamas demands are unimportant, it is the crushing of palestinians will and spirit that causes terrorism not hamas, hamas is the result not the cause so hamas is basically unimportant in the discussion...

[LittleGrizzly]

Thats a good point frag, i forget that the palestinians don't really care for thier lack of food and water, they don't really care that they live in refugee camps and have little access to medical care, they don't care that they die at a far higher rate than israelis in this conflict

All the palestinians really care about is that everyone must praise allah!

Maybe your onto something with your clever cartoon... the only reason for any terrorism from muslims is because they simply cannot accept people of other religions, all the wars and conflicts and puppet goverments inflicted on them are cheap excuses!

ok thats my sarcasm fill for the day, on a serious note though.... even if all i sarcastically said was true, wouldn't it still be better to remove thier cheap excuses and expose them properly for what they are ?

[Incongruous]

On Hamas demands...
Reading the Wikipedia article on Hamas, specifically the "The possibility of a ceasefire with Israel" one sees some Hamas leaders calling for 1949 lines, 1967 lines, and all kinds of different requirements for Israel. It's ridiculous to try and figure out what Hamas wants, because I don't know what they want, and I don't think they know what they want.

On Hamas being legitimate...
I'm sure Hamas was elected by a majority of Palestinians. Everyone can agree on that. What we're having a problem with is the actions being attributed to Hamas. Hamas, if not having supported these rocket attacks, have allowed them to occur. They are either the murderers or those who hand the murderer the gun. They are legitimate, but their actions render them illegitimate in the eyes of many. They may "speak" for Palestinians, or they may do the speaking for them and keep them in the dark. I don't know, and you don't either. So if my country wants to throw the glove down and call Hamas terrorists, that's fine by me. They called the ANC terrorists too, but now we're recognizing them as a legitimate government not because they bullied and bombed the hell out of Johannesburg and Pretoria, but because they won it through fair elections and didn't begin the aforementioned killing.


On aid to Palestine...
US provides (and has provided) Palestine with about $85 million annually

EU plans on resuming aid to Palestine

Clearly aid has been sent to Palestine in amounts that are sufficient to create a 'stable' society if they used the money responsibly. But who wants to turn off a money valve right? That isn't to say that the money being shipped into Palestine is specifically being used to fund Hamas, it does mean that the Palestinians are doing something with the money, and it isn't the newest hospital. Besides, who really reports Iranian aid?


On feeling bad for the Palestinians...
I feel bad for the Palestinians, for the Israelis, for everyone. This plain old sucks. Trying to get that point across by whining about "us rich spoiled kids who live in splendor and opulence" not understanding what it's like to live without healthcare and running water.
So what, do I have to live in a gulag to complain about them? Maybe I should be enslaved so I can appreciate anti-slavery? I don't have to experience those things to comment on them, so why should I retract my statement about Palestinians because I can type on a computer? I have my views and they are just as valid as yours. I'm sick and tired of this gross fallacy that I need to experience something or empathize with someone before I can comment on a subject.

Guns of Gaza


Islamists legitimize anti-Semitism

Oh God! Used the money properly? Hamas is one of the best political formations ever to occur in Gaza, the people love them because they are not corrupt (as corrupt).

Western support for any opposition is once again a showcase for our general disdain for 3rd world democracy, the US will never be safe as long as it pisses people off by making a mockery out of their politics. You dare point the finger at the Gazans for being depserate enough (we are talking life and death everyday, I hear most Israelis have enough food and water) to vote in killers when the Israeli's went one worse with Sharon, taking the piss or what?

What this is, is a modern day colonial war, something none of us have witnessed before, the carving out of a nation from another already there. It sanctioning by the West is the best illustration that none of us really give a toss about human rights or any of that bollocks spewed out by that tosser in a wheel chair or any of the others since.

I mean really, that some Americans think their nation is nice, get with it, you support some of the most vile people in the world, Isreali politicians amongs them.

[Furunculus]

You dare point the finger at the Gazans for being depserate enough (we are talking life and death everyday, I hear most Israelis have enough food and water) to vote in killers when the Israeli's went one worse with Sharon, taking the piss or what?

don't pick up tribesmans bad habits, they are fairly repellent.

yes i dare, they are responsible for their actions and will suffer the consequences, in the same way that 911 victims are responsible for an interventionist Gov't which has made enemies around the world while it worked to create conditions that will ensure amercian hegemony.

there is always a price to be paid.

[Tribesman]

Oh dear more Israelis have been killed , by Israel .
Now I know mistakes happen but firing a tank shell at a battalion commander killing 3 and wounding 20 is a bit of a screw up isn't it , but on the bright side at least the IDF can claim they didn't target civilians when they blew up the building .

Clearly aid has been sent to Palestine in amounts that are sufficient to create a 'stable' society if they used the money responsibly.

It's rather hard to create a stable society when 80% of the population is reliant on food aid , its difficult to get a working economy or food aid to the population when the borders are closed .
According to Oxfam Gaza requires about 400 truck loads of food delivered per day , yet the crossing open at the moment can only transit about 100 trucks per day .
Its interesting that you note that the US gives about 85 million annually , can you tell me how many millions in Palestinian government income Israel has taken every month and kept because it won't give the Palestinians government money to the Palestinian government ?
Its rather hard to get a stable society when your borders are closed and your revenue is being stolen isn't it .

[LittleGrizzly]

poor analogy.

Britain is not a tiny nation of ~6 million.
Britain is not a tiny space with zero strategic depth.
Britain was/is not surrounded by three hostile nations all of which are much bigger.
Britain is not a 60 year old nation with all the foreign hostility that entails.
Britain is not a 60 year old nation with all the instability that entails.
Britain has not fought three wars of survival in the last 60 years.
Britain is a Great Power with a great deal of diplomatic influence.
Britain is an island with a powerful navy that provides a level of security unimaginable to israel.

In short, we had a million options not currently available to israel.

My point is there is a way of dealing with terrorism, there is a way which reduces tensions all round, and there is a way which hieghtens tensions all round.

Being that israel is in a worse position than britian shouldn't it try even harder than britian did with the ira to get peace, if there was no palestinian issue then israel would have relatively few problems

Surely all your points are even greater incentive for israel to act cooperatively and to reduce the terrorists support ?

though a few issues with some of your points

Britain was/is not surrounded by three hostile nations all of which are much bigger.

Israel may be surronded by bigger countries but militarily it is far more capable than those nations combined, so no real excuse there and egypt is no longer an enemy.

Britain is a Great Power with a great deal of diplomatic influence.

Well we didn't have the same level of support america gives israel in its battle against terrorism, werent the ira still collecting in usa not long before 9/11, the huge support of america more than makes up for this im sure

Britain is not a tiny space with zero strategic depth.
Britain is not a 60 year old nation with all the foreign hostility that entails.

When was the last war.... 67... surely that can't still be a good excuse for the israelis not to deal with terrorism properly, with egypt out of the picture any invasion is impratical inworkable and will never succeed, thus a crappy excuse of israel's behalf....

Britain has not fought three wars of survival in the last 60 years.

'48 '67 and..... ? the infadata (sp?) ? i would hardly call the last one a war for survival, and '67 that was 40 years ago... get with the times, israel is not going to be invaded by nieghbouring states, as much as it would like to keep peddling this line....

Britain is an island with a powerful navy that provides a level of security unimaginable to israel.

Well i see an invasion by a foriegn power of britian only slightly less likely than israel, in reality neither is going to happen anytime soon barring major political shifts..... in other words a crappy excuse...

Britain is not a tiny nation of ~6 million.

Im basically left with just this one, but anyway as i earlier said being a much smaller population you have far more incentive for peace, far more incentive to go down the britian ira route which has basically reduced terrorism to non existant rather than the isreali route which seems to have been creating more terrorists.

poor analogy.

I think it fits very well as a case of how to deal with terrorism, it is essentially people that keep terrorism going, the only way to defeat it is either hearts and minds, or kill them all. Kill them all isn't a viable option so hearts and minds is the only workable approach

yes i dare, they are responsible for their actions and will suffer the consequences, in the same way that 911 victims are responsible for an interventionist Gov't which has made enemies around the world while it worked to create conditions that will ensure amercian hegemony.

I can respect that, your approach is consistent.

Its something i wonder about myself somewhat, if a democratic society elects people which go and do bad things around the world, does this in a sense legitimise terrorist attacks against itself...

and i think in a sense it does

Just a little side note i would also like to make about hamas indiscriminate rocket firing

Doesn't anyone stop for a second and think that if hamas had all the expensive equipment the israelis had that they would love to go after israels leaders, police force and army the way israel went after thiers...

I have no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of hamas members (of the terrorist wing of the organisation) are happy to kill innocent civilians, byut don't you think they would be far happier if they had the latest technology and could get the leaders in the same way israel gets hamas leaders....

Another thing to go into would be israel saying look how much better we are than hamas because of these parts of thier extremist agenda... well back to the ira, back in the day (before we tried negoations and other weak kneed liberal policies) the ira said some pretty extreme things, the downtrodden under the boot of the mighty are going to be the extremists, the rich and powerful are never going to be the extremists, but anyway, you'll never guess what happened, when we actually started resolving the situation bit by bit thier extremist propaganda died away...

They even had the real ira split from the ira, and despite thier best efforts to stir up trouble britian resisted stayed the course and we now have a peaceful ireland, if only the israelis could look at the example set and see that thier going about it the wrong way completely

[Andres]

Why do people always get so upset by this subject? And why do people feel like they have to pick sides in this conflict?

Both parties have committed attrocities and in a way, you could say they act like children who refuse to grow up.

Why don't they create a (con)federal state, with protection of minority rights and a veto for each group on important issues?

Yes, there will be alot of bickering in parliament, yes there will be alot of absurdity, but that only leads to citizens who are disgusted by politicians (people will always dislike politicans, just like they dislike crooked salesmen, lawyers, etc. ) and high taxes; nobody dies of it.

I really, really don't understand why this dispute hasn't been resolved yet.

For reasons beyond my comprehension, it seems to me both parties prefer this perpetual state of war (and the misery and tragedy inherent on it) over a peaceful society (with the occasional tensions, but without spilling blood).

I guess I'm the idiot, by expecting common sense from the people who are in power

[Tribesman]

Israel hadn't even tried to get along with it's neighbours. The fact is that if the opportunity was given to Israel tomorow to take Gaza with no international repercussions they would take it with out a doubt. Fact.

That isn't true , Israel would only take Gaza if there were not those pesky locals living there .

Yom Kippur War of 73?

my mistake , it confusing with so many wars , of course Yom Kippur was '73 thats when some countries launched a surprise attack on Israel , the six day war was when Israel launched a surprise attack on some countries .
I suppose we should add the '56 war when Israel and its european allies started a war and the South Lebanon war where Israel and its terrorist friends had a little party that didn't turn out too well .

What Goods to Israel even produce?

I can honestly say I cant recall seeing anything with made in Israel on..

They export loads of things , but they have got in a bit of trouble lately for selling stuff as "Made in Israel" when it has been produced in the illegal setlements .

what I'm trying to do though is show Hoohaguy why this conflict has been brought about.

Have you perhaps considered talking to a brick wall ? It might get better results

[Furunculus]

my mistake , it confusing with so many wars , of course Yom Kippur was '73 thats when some countries launched a surprise attack on Israel , the six day war was when Israel launched a surprise attack on some countries .
I suppose we should add the '56 war when Israel and its european allies started a war and the South Lebanon war where Israel and its terrorist friends had a little party that didn't turn out too well .

come on now, i was just being nice and informing you in a nice way of a teensy error you had made, a quick "thanks" would have more than sufficed.

[Husar]

Why do people always get so upset by this subject? And why do people feel like they have to pick sides in this conflict?

Both parties have committed attrocities and in a way, you could say they act like children who refuse to grow up.

Oh I completely agree and mentioned it some pages ago but it doesn't really fit with the usual "us vs. them" kind of tribal thinking we still find in the "enlightened" west. If it helps in any way, my guess is that tribesman has a similar stance but noone notices because he is always "them" anyway.

There were one or two others but the voices of reason are too often drowned by the waves of "Kill them!"-shouters, which shows that in a way this forum is just like the middle east.