Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Marshal Murat]

On Hamas demands...
Reading the Wikipedia article on Hamas, specifically the "The possibility of a ceasefire with Israel" one sees some Hamas leaders calling for 1949 lines, 1967 lines, and all kinds of different requirements for Israel. It's ridiculous to try and figure out what Hamas wants, because I don't know what they want, and I don't think they know what they want.

On Hamas being legitimate...
I'm sure Hamas was elected by a majority of Palestinians. Everyone can agree on that. What we're having a problem with is the actions being attributed to Hamas. Hamas, if not having supported these rocket attacks, have allowed them to occur. They are either the murderers or those who hand the murderer the gun. They are legitimate, but their actions render them illegitimate in the eyes of many. They may "speak" for Palestinians, or they may do the speaking for them and keep them in the dark. I don't know, and you don't either. So if my country wants to throw the glove down and call Hamas terrorists, that's fine by me. They called the ANC terrorists too, but now we're recognizing them as a legitimate government not because they bullied and bombed the hell out of Johannesburg and Pretoria, but because they won it through fair elections and didn't begin the aforementioned killing.


On aid to Palestine...
US provides (and has provided) Palestine with about $85 million annually

EU plans on resuming aid to Palestine

Clearly aid has been sent to Palestine in amounts that are sufficient to create a 'stable' society if they used the money responsibly. But who wants to turn off a money valve right? That isn't to say that the money being shipped into Palestine is specifically being used to fund Hamas, it does mean that the Palestinians are doing something with the money, and it isn't the newest hospital. Besides, who really reports Iranian aid?


On feeling bad for the Palestinians...
I feel bad for the Palestinians, for the Israelis, for everyone. This plain old sucks. Trying to get that point across by whining about "us rich spoiled kids who live in splendor and opulence" not understanding what it's like to live without healthcare and running water.
So what, do I have to live in a gulag to complain about them? Maybe I should be enslaved so I can appreciate anti-slavery? I don't have to experience those things to comment on them, so why should I retract my statement about Palestinians because I can type on a computer? I have my views and they are just as valid as yours. I'm sick and tired of this gross fallacy that I need to experience something or empathize with someone before I can comment on a subject.

Guns of Gaza

“Operation Lead” began with an artful deception effort. After Hamas refused to renew the truce that had been in effect and began launching unguided rockets against Israeli cities and towns again, the terrorists expected swift retaliation. In fact, Hamas welcomed the prospect, since its leaders knew the population of Gaza was wearying of their rule and the misery it fostered. The terrorists wanted a bloody exchange to rally Palestinians behind them again.

Islamists legitimize anti-Semitism

Fighting intensified on the northern outskirts of Gaza City yesterday as a Hamas leader warned that the Islamists would kill Jewish children anywhere in the world in revenge for Israel’s devastating assault.

[LittleGrizzly]

On Hamas demands...

Hamas demands are unimportant, it is the crushing of palestinians will and spirit that causes terrorism not hamas, hamas is the result not the cause so hamas is basically unimportant in the discussion...

What is important is that the palestinians are given a fair deal, i perscribe to the 1967 lines myself, thats what will stop terrorism...

side noe it is surely a good sign that hamas members cannot agree on definitions themself, its show that democracy is alive and well when they have differing opinions on these matters. You could use any countries politicians disagreeing as an excuse otherwise...

On Hamas being legitimate...
I'm sure Hamas was elected by a majority of Palestinians. Everyone can agree on that. What we're having a problem with is the actions being attributed to Hamas. Hamas, if not having supported these rocket attacks, have allowed them to occur. They are either the murderers or those who hand the murderer the gun. They are legitimate, but their actions render them illegitimate in the eyes of many. They may "speak" for Palestinians, or they may do the speaking for them and keep them in the dark. I don't know, and you don't either. So if my country wants to throw the glove down and call Hamas terrorists, that's fine by me. They called the ANC terrorists too, but now we're recognizing them as a legitimate government not because they bullied and bombed the hell out of Johannesburg and Pretoria, but because they won it through fair elections and didn't begin the aforementioned killing.

Both countries (israel and palestine) have legitimitally elected murderers. I want my leaders to treat these terrorist goverments the same, neither deserve anything but aid if they really need it....

On aid to Palestine...

That being the paltry sum compared to that given to israel..

Clearly aid has been sent to Palestine in amounts that are sufficient to create a 'stable' society if they used the money responsibly.

If israel would allow them a viable state, then sure they could. but they don't so the point is moot...

But who wants to turn off a money valve right?

Clearly not the many palestinian millionaires, or all those luxury tents they have in the refugee camps..

Both sides have people who gain money from continuing the conflict, only the completely biased would think it is only true on one side

On feeling bad for the Palestinians...
I feel bad for the Palestinians, for the Israelis, for everyone. This plain old sucks.

Im not sure how bad i feel for both civilian populations, as one ranting israeli supporter said on radio earlier, they're bringing this on themselves by electing hamas, except its true for the israelis as well, bringing it on themselves..

I guess i feel sorry for the minoritys in both countries that want peace...

I'm sick and tired of this gross fallacy that I need to experience something or empathize with someone before I can comment on a subject.

Same here, this also applies for both sides, we can have opinions even though were rich haven't experienced terrorism and haven't had our race almost wiped out in some old peoples living memory

Operation Lead” began with an artful deception effort. After Hamas refused to renew the truce that had been in effect and began launching unguided rockets against Israeli cities and towns again, the terrorists expected swift retaliation. In fact, Hamas welcomed the prospect, since its leaders knew the population of Gaza was wearying of their rule and the misery it fostered. The terrorists wanted a bloody exchange to rally Palestinians behind them again.

This is possibly the worst reasoning for doing any military action!!!!

Why did you invade... well the enemy wanted us to... ?!

Sun Tzu would be spinning in his grave!

im not sure where you were going with that... israel should invade because hamas wanted it to ?

Fighting intensified on the northern outskirts of Gaza City yesterday as a Hamas leader warned that the Islamists would kill Jewish children anywhere in the world in revenge for Israel’s devastating assault.

Well thats a surprise.... and i suppose there where no racist black groups in response to thier treatment by whites for years....

or maybe it is common for a downtrodden people to dislike the powerful group that keeps it down... maybe it is a theme that commonly replays throughout history.... maybe it is to be expected that people will do this when they are treated badly by a group (be they whites, jews, arabs or those damn blue eyed people!)

[Incongruous]

On Hamas demands...
Reading the Wikipedia article on Hamas, specifically the "The possibility of a ceasefire with Israel" one sees some Hamas leaders calling for 1949 lines, 1967 lines, and all kinds of different requirements for Israel. It's ridiculous to try and figure out what Hamas wants, because I don't know what they want, and I don't think they know what they want.

On Hamas being legitimate...
I'm sure Hamas was elected by a majority of Palestinians. Everyone can agree on that. What we're having a problem with is the actions being attributed to Hamas. Hamas, if not having supported these rocket attacks, have allowed them to occur. They are either the murderers or those who hand the murderer the gun. They are legitimate, but their actions render them illegitimate in the eyes of many. They may "speak" for Palestinians, or they may do the speaking for them and keep them in the dark. I don't know, and you don't either. So if my country wants to throw the glove down and call Hamas terrorists, that's fine by me. They called the ANC terrorists too, but now we're recognizing them as a legitimate government not because they bullied and bombed the hell out of Johannesburg and Pretoria, but because they won it through fair elections and didn't begin the aforementioned killing.


On aid to Palestine...
US provides (and has provided) Palestine with about $85 million annually

EU plans on resuming aid to Palestine

Clearly aid has been sent to Palestine in amounts that are sufficient to create a 'stable' society if they used the money responsibly. But who wants to turn off a money valve right? That isn't to say that the money being shipped into Palestine is specifically being used to fund Hamas, it does mean that the Palestinians are doing something with the money, and it isn't the newest hospital. Besides, who really reports Iranian aid?


On feeling bad for the Palestinians...
I feel bad for the Palestinians, for the Israelis, for everyone. This plain old sucks. Trying to get that point across by whining about "us rich spoiled kids who live in splendor and opulence" not understanding what it's like to live without healthcare and running water.
So what, do I have to live in a gulag to complain about them? Maybe I should be enslaved so I can appreciate anti-slavery? I don't have to experience those things to comment on them, so why should I retract my statement about Palestinians because I can type on a computer? I have my views and they are just as valid as yours. I'm sick and tired of this gross fallacy that I need to experience something or empathize with someone before I can comment on a subject.

Guns of Gaza


Islamists legitimize anti-Semitism

Oh God! Used the money properly? Hamas is one of the best political formations ever to occur in Gaza, the people love them because they are not corrupt (as corrupt).

Western support for any opposition is once again a showcase for our general disdain for 3rd world democracy, the US will never be safe as long as it pisses people off by making a mockery out of their politics. You dare point the finger at the Gazans for being depserate enough (we are talking life and death everyday, I hear most Israelis have enough food and water) to vote in killers when the Israeli's went one worse with Sharon, taking the piss or what?

What this is, is a modern day colonial war, something none of us have witnessed before, the carving out of a nation from another already there. It sanctioning by the West is the best illustration that none of us really give a toss about human rights or any of that bollocks spewed out by that tosser in a wheel chair or any of the others since.

I mean really, that some Americans think their nation is nice, get with it, you support some of the most vile people in the world, Isreali politicians amongs them.

[Furunculus]

Intresting question for those who support over the top retaliation....

Where would britian have got if they had tried this tactic with ireland over the IRA ?

It is no surprise that missles get fired into israel when you see the state the palestinians live in

poor analogy.

Britain is not a tiny nation of ~6 million.
Britain is not a tiny space with zero strategic depth.
Britain was/is not surrounded by three hostile nations all of which are much bigger.
Britain is not a 60 year old nation with all the foreign hostility that entails.
Britain is not a 60 year old nation with all the instability that entails.
Britain has not fought three wars of survival in the last 60 years.
Britain is a Great Power with a great deal of diplomatic influence.
Britain is an island with a powerful navy that provides a level of security unimaginable to israel.

In short, we had a million options not currently available to israel.

[Furunculus]

You dare point the finger at the Gazans for being depserate enough (we are talking life and death everyday, I hear most Israelis have enough food and water) to vote in killers when the Israeli's went one worse with Sharon, taking the piss or what?

don't pick up tribesmans bad habits, they are fairly repellent.

yes i dare, they are responsible for their actions and will suffer the consequences, in the same way that 911 victims are responsible for an interventionist Gov't which has made enemies around the world while it worked to create conditions that will ensure amercian hegemony.

there is always a price to be paid.

[Tribesman]

Oh dear more Israelis have been killed , by Israel .
Now I know mistakes happen but firing a tank shell at a battalion commander killing 3 and wounding 20 is a bit of a screw up isn't it , but on the bright side at least the IDF can claim they didn't target civilians when they blew up the building .

Clearly aid has been sent to Palestine in amounts that are sufficient to create a 'stable' society if they used the money responsibly.

It's rather hard to create a stable society when 80% of the population is reliant on food aid , its difficult to get a working economy or food aid to the population when the borders are closed .
According to Oxfam Gaza requires about 400 truck loads of food delivered per day , yet the crossing open at the moment can only transit about 100 trucks per day .
Its interesting that you note that the US gives about 85 million annually , can you tell me how many millions in Palestinian government income Israel has taken every month and kept because it won't give the Palestinians government money to the Palestinian government ?
Its rather hard to get a stable society when your borders are closed and your revenue is being stolen isn't it .

[LittleGrizzly]

poor analogy.

Britain is not a tiny nation of ~6 million.
Britain is not a tiny space with zero strategic depth.
Britain was/is not surrounded by three hostile nations all of which are much bigger.
Britain is not a 60 year old nation with all the foreign hostility that entails.
Britain is not a 60 year old nation with all the instability that entails.
Britain has not fought three wars of survival in the last 60 years.
Britain is a Great Power with a great deal of diplomatic influence.
Britain is an island with a powerful navy that provides a level of security unimaginable to israel.

In short, we had a million options not currently available to israel.

My point is there is a way of dealing with terrorism, there is a way which reduces tensions all round, and there is a way which hieghtens tensions all round.

Being that israel is in a worse position than britian shouldn't it try even harder than britian did with the ira to get peace, if there was no palestinian issue then israel would have relatively few problems

Surely all your points are even greater incentive for israel to act cooperatively and to reduce the terrorists support ?

though a few issues with some of your points

Britain was/is not surrounded by three hostile nations all of which are much bigger.

Israel may be surronded by bigger countries but militarily it is far more capable than those nations combined, so no real excuse there and egypt is no longer an enemy.

Britain is a Great Power with a great deal of diplomatic influence.

Well we didn't have the same level of support america gives israel in its battle against terrorism, werent the ira still collecting in usa not long before 9/11, the huge support of america more than makes up for this im sure

Britain is not a tiny space with zero strategic depth.
Britain is not a 60 year old nation with all the foreign hostility that entails.

When was the last war.... 67... surely that can't still be a good excuse for the israelis not to deal with terrorism properly, with egypt out of the picture any invasion is impratical inworkable and will never succeed, thus a crappy excuse of israel's behalf....

Britain has not fought three wars of survival in the last 60 years.

'48 '67 and..... ? the infadata (sp?) ? i would hardly call the last one a war for survival, and '67 that was 40 years ago... get with the times, israel is not going to be invaded by nieghbouring states, as much as it would like to keep peddling this line....

Britain is an island with a powerful navy that provides a level of security unimaginable to israel.

Well i see an invasion by a foriegn power of britian only slightly less likely than israel, in reality neither is going to happen anytime soon barring major political shifts..... in other words a crappy excuse...

Britain is not a tiny nation of ~6 million.

Im basically left with just this one, but anyway as i earlier said being a much smaller population you have far more incentive for peace, far more incentive to go down the britian ira route which has basically reduced terrorism to non existant rather than the isreali route which seems to have been creating more terrorists.

poor analogy.

I think it fits very well as a case of how to deal with terrorism, it is essentially people that keep terrorism going, the only way to defeat it is either hearts and minds, or kill them all. Kill them all isn't a viable option so hearts and minds is the only workable approach

yes i dare, they are responsible for their actions and will suffer the consequences, in the same way that 911 victims are responsible for an interventionist Gov't which has made enemies around the world while it worked to create conditions that will ensure amercian hegemony.

I can respect that, your approach is consistent.

Its something i wonder about myself somewhat, if a democratic society elects people which go and do bad things around the world, does this in a sense legitimise terrorist attacks against itself...

and i think in a sense it does

Just a little side note i would also like to make about hamas indiscriminate rocket firing

Doesn't anyone stop for a second and think that if hamas had all the expensive equipment the israelis had that they would love to go after israels leaders, police force and army the way israel went after thiers...

I have no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of hamas members (of the terrorist wing of the organisation) are happy to kill innocent civilians, byut don't you think they would be far happier if they had the latest technology and could get the leaders in the same way israel gets hamas leaders....

Another thing to go into would be israel saying look how much better we are than hamas because of these parts of thier extremist agenda... well back to the ira, back in the day (before we tried negoations and other weak kneed liberal policies) the ira said some pretty extreme things, the downtrodden under the boot of the mighty are going to be the extremists, the rich and powerful are never going to be the extremists, but anyway, you'll never guess what happened, when we actually started resolving the situation bit by bit thier extremist propaganda died away...

They even had the real ira split from the ira, and despite thier best efforts to stir up trouble britian resisted stayed the course and we now have a peaceful ireland, if only the israelis could look at the example set and see that thier going about it the wrong way completely

[Tribesman]

'48 '67 and..... ? the infadata (sp?) ?

You are missing the six day war .

[Furunculus]

yes i dare, they are responsible for their actions and will suffer the consequences, in the same way that 911 victims are responsible for an interventionist Gov't which has made enemies around the world while it worked to create conditions that will ensure amercian hegemony.

I can respect that, your approach is consistent.

Its something i wonder about myself somewhat, if a democratic society elects people which go and do bad things around the world, does this in a sense legitimise terrorist attacks against itself...

and i think in a sense it does

I do not support targeting civilians, but the only true innocents are those living under unrepresentative and repressive regimes. :)

[LittleGrizzly]

Ok now i am confused i thought '67 was the six day war ?

At least that is what wiki is telling me....

I do not support targeting civilians

I more mean it adds legitimacy to its actions, not that thier supportable or right...

[Furunculus]

You are missing the six day war .

Yom Kippur War of 73?

[Husar]

Well there's still attacks going on so they need to rethink there approach a little. All there doing is handing Hamas Propaganda material.

Well, you have to say though, that Hamas are trying their best to hand the Israelis propaganda material as well. Just yesterday they said on the radio that Hamas called for more attacks against Israel, it's not like anyone peaceful would find that a good idea, or is it?

[LittleGrizzly]

They are both escalating thier attacks which seems logical but incredibly stupid at the same time

Didn't know of this yom kippur war, my point still stands though, israel is under no serious threat from foriegn states...

Egypt won't attack, niether will jordan, syria might like to but are far too sensible to try an unwinnable war, saddam would have liked to lob a few bombs at them but even he's gone, thier biggest threat is Iran. Israel would kick irans !

[tibilicus]

Sorry hoohguy or whatever your name is but I'm not even going to bother replying to your other post.

You say I'm an anti-Zionist because I don't support every Israeli action?

I don't have a problem with Israel, my problem is though the bully mentality that Israel has in the middle east and it's defiance to only work with governments favourable to it, Palestine isn't one of them. Just look at Egypt and Saudi Arabia now. Pro Western governments so Israel leaves them be.

But when some one stands up to you you can't handle it so go in guns blazing, just looks like your trying to redeem yourself from 2006. You know why? Because your country got HUMILIATED
by Hezboulla. Yep that's right. You got your handed to you buy some guys hiding in mountains with RPG's. They used clever tactics and staged a good guerilla war and you ultimately left that war humiliated. Don't lie and say otherwise. The only people who are convinced they won that war are Isralies themselves but hey, the majority( I'm talking government figures here) of those are conservative right wing morons who see themselves as above every one else in the middle east.

Israel hadn't even tried to get along with it's neighbours. The fact is that if the opportunity was given to Israel tomorow to take Gaza with no international repercussions they would take it with out a doubt. Fact.

You see the thing with most nations is (GB for example) is that we can see the way to work with terrorist organizations. The head of our army admitted the IRA couldn't be beaten on the ground so that's why negotiations happened, now look at Northern Ireland it's relativity stable.

You also are happy to go around playing the old "boo hoo I'm an Israeli you can't hate us your an anti-Zionist anti-semetic racist" card. The fact when I asked you before about the civilians being killed, and yes the majority are civilians the bbc says so you tried to deny it. And then there is your humour which I can see shows your underlying view you think your superior to Palestinians. I pity you being brought up to hate, much like all the other right wing Israelis.



Ah well I just hope Hamas kick your sorry behinds on the ground and embarrass your military again. Might teach your country not to be so imperialistic.

Just remember Israel HUMILIATED by Hezboulla. You got your soldiers back from that war didn't you? Shame they came back in coffins though. And you just don't learn these lessons..

[LittleGrizzly]

The socailist worker party (or something along those lines, i forget the name) has called for people to boycott israeli goods, im just wondering what the general views on a boycott are here in the forum ?

I am in full support!

I don't think we exactly have many israeli goods anyway, but i will try and convince my mum on the position tonight, the israelis may care nought for international outrage but him them in thier pockets and they will feel it.... remember every israeli product bought funds more bullets missles and solidiers for the occupation!

[Fragony]

Hamas demands are unimportant, it is the crushing of palestinians will and spirit that causes terrorism not hamas, hamas is the result not the cause so hamas is basically unimportant in the discussion...

[tibilicus]

The socailist worker party (or something along those lines, i forget the name) has called for people to boycott israeli goods, im just wondering what the general views on a boycott are here in the forum ?

the occupation!

What Goods to Israel even produce?

I can honestly say I cant recall seeing anything with made in Israel on..

[Andres]

Why do people always get so upset by this subject? And why do people feel like they have to pick sides in this conflict?

Both parties have committed attrocities and in a way, you could say they act like children who refuse to grow up.

Why don't they create a (con)federal state, with protection of minority rights and a veto for each group on important issues?

Yes, there will be alot of bickering in parliament, yes there will be alot of absurdity, but that only leads to citizens who are disgusted by politicians (people will always dislike politicans, just like they dislike crooked salesmen, lawyers, etc. ) and high taxes; nobody dies of it.

I really, really don't understand why this dispute hasn't been resolved yet.

For reasons beyond my comprehension, it seems to me both parties prefer this perpetual state of war (and the misery and tragedy inherent on it) over a peaceful society (with the occasional tensions, but without spilling blood).

I guess I'm the idiot, by expecting common sense from the people who are in power

[Furunculus]

1. But when some one stands up to you you can't handle it so go in guns blazing, just looks like your trying to redeem yourself from 2006. You know why? Because your country got HUMILIATED
by Hezboulla. Yep that's right. You got your asses handed to you buy some guys hiding in mountains with RPG's. They used clever tactics and staged a good guerilla war and you ultimately left that war humiliated. Don't lie and say otherwise. The only people who are convinced they won that war are Isralies themselves but hey, the majority( I'm talking government figures here) of those are conservative right wing morons who see themselves as above every one else in the middle east.

2. The fact is that if the opportunity was given to Israel tomorow to take Gaza with no international repercussions they would take it with out a doubt. Fact.

3. The head of our army admitted the IRA couldn't be beaten on the ground so that's why negotiations happened, now look at Northern Ireland it's relativity stable.

4. You also are happy to go around playing the old "boo hoo I'm an Israeli you can't hate us your an anti-Zionist anti-semetic racist" card. The fact when I asked you before about the civilians being killed, and yes the majority are civilians the bbc says so you tried to deny it. And then there is your humour which I can see shows your underlying view you think your superior to Palestinians. I pity you being brought up to hate, much like all the other right wing Israelis.

5. You also seemed not to flinch when I mentioned the child who lost his family but hey, no biggie for you right in your nice little house? You probably get excited and happy when you see Palestinian children dying don't you? All because they're on your land. Which by the way isn't even your land.

6. Ah well I just hope Hamas kick your sorry behinds on the ground and embarrass your military again. Might teach your country not to be so imperialistic.

7. Just remember Israel HUMILIATED by Hezboulla. You got your soldiers back from that war didn't you? Shame they came back in coffins though. And you just don't learn these lessons..

1. I think you will find that the israeli military do not count it a victory and like any good learning army, of which there are very few, they will overcome the deficits revealed by lebanon.

2. Israel does not want Gaza, making it part of Israel would destroy the demographics of a jewish state.

3. You mean he admitted that there must be a political end to a conflict like NI, no kidding. so what?

4. The UN says that more than a quarter are civilians, not the majority. I quite liked Hooha's witty asides about militants 'expiring', does that make me a product of a hate-filled childhood too?

5. I cried a little bit when i read about that child, there i feel better about myself because i am indeed superior to that nasty zionist oppressor Hoohaguy.

6. I would rather see an administration in gaza that is interested in peacefully co-existing with the sovereign nation state of israel.

7. We all make mistakes, I am confident the IDF will learn from them.

[LittleGrizzly]

Thats a good point frag, i forget that the palestinians don't really care for thier lack of food and water, they don't really care that they live in refugee camps and have little access to medical care, they don't care that they die at a far higher rate than israelis in this conflict

All the palestinians really care about is that everyone must praise allah!

Maybe your onto something with your clever cartoon... the only reason for any terrorism from muslims is because they simply cannot accept people of other religions, all the wars and conflicts and puppet goverments inflicted on them are cheap excuses!

ok thats my sarcasm fill for the day, on a serious note though.... even if all i sarcastically said was true, wouldn't it still be better to remove thier cheap excuses and expose them properly for what they are ?

[Furunculus]

What Goods to Israel even produce?

I can honestly say I cant recall seeing anything with made in Israel on..

Intel has some fabs and design labs in israel, who invented the Banias chip which is the precursor to the successful "Core" family of processors which replaced the hopeless P4 line.

I would give those up, that'll stick it to'em!

[Ronin]

What Goods to Israel even produce?

I can honestly say I cant recall seeing anything with made in Israel on..

if you are in the market for a Desert Eagle .50, an Uzi or a nice tank....please think before you buy!

[Fragony]

Thats a good point frag, i forget that the palestinians don't really care for thier lack of food and water, they don't really care that they live in refugee camps and have little access to medical care, they don't care that they die at a far higher rate than israelis in this conflict

Hamas don't care, all aid goes directly to Hamas, and what do they do? Yep buy rockets.


Crashcourse Hamas for pacifists

[LittleGrizzly]

Why do people always get so upset by this subject? And why do people feel like they have to pick sides in this conflict?

I started out on this topic trying my hardest to criticise both equally, the fact that israel is the powerful oppressor whose citizens mainly live in nice conditions and the palestinians are the oppressed who live mainly in refugee camps and the like simply leaves me unable to defend israeli actions

Both parties have committed attrocities and in a way, you could say they act like children who refuse to grow up.

Why don't they create a (con)federal state, with protection of minority rights and a veto for each group on important issues?

Yes, there will be alot of bickering in parliament, yes there will be alot of absurdity, but that only leads to citizens who are disgusted by politicians (people will always dislike politicans, just like they dislike crooked salesmen, lawyers, etc. ) and high taxes; nobody dies of it.

Sounds like a great idea!

I think you would find more opposition form israelis than palestinians on your resolution, basically any decent resolution involves israel giving something and the palestinians getting something, it seems unfair but the palestinians simply have nothing to give, it is israel that has most to gain from the status qou over some peaceful resolution (one reason why i think they encourage this perpetual state of war)

really, really don't understand why this dispute hasn't been resolved yet.

For reasons beyond my comprehension, it seems to me both parties prefer this perpetual state of war (and the misery and tragedy inherent on it) over a peaceful society (with the occasional tensions, but without spilling blood).

Basically the state of israel would have to give stuff away or at least share
Leaders of fringe loonies would lose votes as you don't these loonies if theres no enemy to fight (goes for leadership of both peoples)
and basically most dictators in the mid east are happy to use the thing as a distraction from the lack rights and progress in thier own countrys

3. You mean he admitted that there must be a political end to a conflict like NI, no kidding. so what?

So maybe after years of israel trying to blow people up and shoot them, they need to stop and go for a political end, which there has to in a conflict like this involving terrorists, and im guessing you agree here...?

6. I would rather see an administration in gaza that is interested in peacefully co-existing with the sovereign nation state of israel.

Me too. But until israel modifys it tactics so that such an administration is possible it would be nice to see them get thier fingers burned... again...

[rory_20_uk]

I doubt Hamas has to buy the rockets.

And considering that Israel doesn't even let money into the area, the oppourtunities to buy anything else are limited. And it has to be very low tech. Anything that requires electricity is out, as Israel disrupts supply. Anything that requires spare parts is a no-no. Even food imports appear to not be allowed.

And what exactly is Hamas to purchase that Israel will not view as a legitimate target? Water treatment plants, fuel supplies etc are all fair game it seems.

If you give people hope they'll be far more concerned about living to tomorrow. Bombing in built up areas and then blaming the only people that appear to be helping them isn't going to win hearts and minds.

[tibilicus]

1. I think you will find that the israeli military do not count it a victory and like any good learning army, of which there are very few, they will overcome the deficits revealed by lebanon.

2. Israel does not want Gaza, making it part of Israel would destroy the demographics of a jewish state.

3. You mean he admitted that there must be a political end to a conflict like NI, no kidding. so what?

4. The UN says that more than a quarter are civilians, not the majority. I quite liked Hooha's witty asides about militants 'expiring', does that make me a product of a hate-filled childhood too?

5. I cried a little bit when i read about that child, there i feel better about myself because i am indeed superior to that nasty zionist oppressor Hoohaguy.

6. I would rather see an administration in gaza that is interested in peacefully co-existing with the sovereign nation state of israel.

7. We all make mistakes, I am confident the IDF will learn from them.

You don't get my point do you?

If you read the previous post I'm not excusing the atrocities of Hamas, what I'm trying to do though is show Hoohaguy why this conflict has been brought about. I'm trying to explain that this attack has been planned for months way before the rockets even started coming over the border.
I'm also trying to explain the dire humanitarian situation Gaza has been put through thanks to Israel and it's blockades. Israel in cases had been blocking aid from charity's going over? what give it the right to do that?

Oh and about the civilians read this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7812286.stm

Among all the hundreds we have seen so far, we have seen two fighters," he said, adding that women and children alone made up 25% of the death toll, and 45% of the wounded.

That's a quote from a foreign doctor working in Gaza. So if you say 25% are civilian but only 25% have been women and children and the men probably add up to another 25 % that means even still at least half of the people killed are non combatants.

By the way you should also know that excessive sarcasm is the lowest form of humour and wit. You should probably watch stand up a bit more, you could learn a lot from it.

[Tribesman]

Israel hadn't even tried to get along with it's neighbours. The fact is that if the opportunity was given to Israel tomorow to take Gaza with no international repercussions they would take it with out a doubt. Fact.

That isn't true , Israel would only take Gaza if there were not those pesky locals living there .

Yom Kippur War of 73?

my mistake , it confusing with so many wars , of course Yom Kippur was '73 thats when some countries launched a surprise attack on Israel , the six day war was when Israel launched a surprise attack on some countries .
I suppose we should add the '56 war when Israel and its european allies started a war and the South Lebanon war where Israel and its terrorist friends had a little party that didn't turn out too well .

What Goods to Israel even produce?

I can honestly say I cant recall seeing anything with made in Israel on..

They export loads of things , but they have got in a bit of trouble lately for selling stuff as "Made in Israel" when it has been produced in the illegal setlements .

what I'm trying to do though is show Hoohaguy why this conflict has been brought about.

Have you perhaps considered talking to a brick wall ? It might get better results

[tibilicus]

At the end of the day to all those who defend Israeli actions, why cant they just bomb the rocket launch positions instead of bombing the most densely populated piece of land on earth. You can see from the news that the militants are launching the rockets outside of the city areas and mainly on mud banks.

You haven't thought that maybe Israel are after something a bit more here than stopping the rocket attacks?

Have you perhaps considered talking to a brick wall ? It might get better results

Maybe it might be able to understand the sociological,economic and historical factors a lot better.

[LittleGrizzly]

You may laugh but those israeli oranges i ate directly supported the war!

though tbh i can't think of much, i would hope that pressure would bring to bear in general so that big shops would stop stocking israeli goods wholesale, if enough people did it with just silly things like oranges it can make a difference

Intel has some fabs and design labs in israel, who invented the Banias chip which is the precursor to the successful "Core" family of processors which replaced the hopeless P4 line.

I would give those up, that'll stick it to'em!

Buy athlon in future, inform pentium of reasoning for decision, encourage anyone and everyone to do those 2 steps... Got it!

so far we have pentuims oranges and a whole bunch of weaponary....

Hamas don't care, all aid goes directly to Hamas, and what do they do? Yep buy rockets.

Actually sorry to correct you there, but Hamas provides basic social services to the palestinian people, infact given the wealth of their arab backers im sure they could quite easily cover thier weapons and other military bills by arab backers alone, meaning they actually spend the aid on aid!

Does hamas even get any aid ?

BTW you kind of missed the point of my post

Is the whole reason for palestinian terrorism to convert everyone to islam ?
or are there maybe other factors you perhaps overlooked.... like dirt poor poverty, killed children, lack of access to water supplies (what is it like 5-10% of the total water ?)

[Fragony]

I doubt Hamas has to buy the rockets.

And considering that Israel doesn't even let money into the area, the oppourtunities to buy anything else are limited. And it has to be very low tech. Anything that requires electricity is out, as Israel disrupts supply. Anything that requires spare parts is a no-no. Even food imports appear to not be allowed.

And what exactly is Hamas to purchase that Israel will not view as a legitimate target? Water treatment plants, fuel supplies etc are all fair game it seems.

If you give people hope they'll be far more concerned about living to tomorrow. Bombing in built up areas and then blaming the only people that appear to be helping them isn't going to win hearts and minds.

No place in the world that recieves more humanitarian aid, makes one wonder, Well some.


Actually sorry to correct you there, but Hamas provides basic social services to the palestinian people

Yeah schools and all that, do you think these kids get math there?