Some joyous tidings from Israel

[LittleGrizzly]

Why do people always get so upset by this subject? And why do people feel like they have to pick sides in this conflict?

I started out on this topic trying my hardest to criticise both equally, the fact that israel is the powerful oppressor whose citizens mainly live in nice conditions and the palestinians are the oppressed who live mainly in refugee camps and the like simply leaves me unable to defend israeli actions

Both parties have committed attrocities and in a way, you could say they act like children who refuse to grow up.

Why don't they create a (con)federal state, with protection of minority rights and a veto for each group on important issues?

Yes, there will be alot of bickering in parliament, yes there will be alot of absurdity, but that only leads to citizens who are disgusted by politicians (people will always dislike politicans, just like they dislike crooked salesmen, lawyers, etc. ) and high taxes; nobody dies of it.

Sounds like a great idea!

I think you would find more opposition form israelis than palestinians on your resolution, basically any decent resolution involves israel giving something and the palestinians getting something, it seems unfair but the palestinians simply have nothing to give, it is israel that has most to gain from the status qou over some peaceful resolution (one reason why i think they encourage this perpetual state of war)

really, really don't understand why this dispute hasn't been resolved yet.

For reasons beyond my comprehension, it seems to me both parties prefer this perpetual state of war (and the misery and tragedy inherent on it) over a peaceful society (with the occasional tensions, but without spilling blood).

Basically the state of israel would have to give stuff away or at least share
Leaders of fringe loonies would lose votes as you don't these loonies if theres no enemy to fight (goes for leadership of both peoples)
and basically most dictators in the mid east are happy to use the thing as a distraction from the lack rights and progress in thier own countrys

3. You mean he admitted that there must be a political end to a conflict like NI, no kidding. so what?

So maybe after years of israel trying to blow people up and shoot them, they need to stop and go for a political end, which there has to in a conflict like this involving terrorists, and im guessing you agree here...?

6. I would rather see an administration in gaza that is interested in peacefully co-existing with the sovereign nation state of israel.

Me too. But until israel modifys it tactics so that such an administration is possible it would be nice to see them get thier fingers burned... again...

[LittleGrizzly]

You may laugh but those israeli oranges i ate directly supported the war!

though tbh i can't think of much, i would hope that pressure would bring to bear in general so that big shops would stop stocking israeli goods wholesale, if enough people did it with just silly things like oranges it can make a difference

Intel has some fabs and design labs in israel, who invented the Banias chip which is the precursor to the successful "Core" family of processors which replaced the hopeless P4 line.

I would give those up, that'll stick it to'em!

Buy athlon in future, inform pentium of reasoning for decision, encourage anyone and everyone to do those 2 steps... Got it!

so far we have pentuims oranges and a whole bunch of weaponary....

Hamas don't care, all aid goes directly to Hamas, and what do they do? Yep buy rockets.

Actually sorry to correct you there, but Hamas provides basic social services to the palestinian people, infact given the wealth of their arab backers im sure they could quite easily cover thier weapons and other military bills by arab backers alone, meaning they actually spend the aid on aid!

Does hamas even get any aid ?

BTW you kind of missed the point of my post

Is the whole reason for palestinian terrorism to convert everyone to islam ?
or are there maybe other factors you perhaps overlooked.... like dirt poor poverty, killed children, lack of access to water supplies (what is it like 5-10% of the total water ?)

[Andres]

I think you would find more opposition form israelis than palestinians on your resolution, basically any decent resolution involves israel giving something and the palestinians getting something, it seems unfair but the palestinians simply have nothing to give, it is israel that has most to gain from the status qou over some peaceful resolution (one reason why i think they encourage this perpetual state of war)

But the Palestinians do have something to offer: peace = no more waste of human (jewish and palestinian!) lives.

And, thinking long term here, once Palestinians get jobs and build up their part of the newly created country, they will add revenue to the newly created state (taxes).

[tibilicus]

But the Palestinians do have something to offer: peace = no more waste of human (jewish and palestinian!) lives.

And, thinking long term here, once Palestinians get jobs and build up their part of the newly created country, they will add revenue to the newly created state (taxes).

That's kind of hard though due to how densely populated it is. Even if there was peace most Palestinians would be unemployed and rebuilding that country would take go knows how long. To long I don't even want to think about it. The fact half of them are Arabs shoved into Gaza by Israel makes you think that maybe an agreement could be reached for example where by Israel would let some of the Palestinian citizens move into their country or at least provide jobs in their country for them.

That would never happen though.

[Andres]

That's kind of hard though due to how densely populated it is. Even if there was peace most Palestinians would be unemployed and rebuilding that country would take go knows how long. To long I don't even want to think about it. The fact half of them are Arabs shoved into Gaza by Israel makes you think that maybe an agreement could be reached for example where by Israel would let some of the Palestinian citizens move into their country or at least provide jobs in their country for them.

That would never happen though.

Ah, but if you make it a (con)federal state then Israel becomes the country of the Palestinians and Palestina the country of the Israelians. Of course, Palestinians would be allowed to live in what is now Israel and vice versa.

Negativism and continuing this perpetual state of war will get us nowhere. Dreaming about peace is the first step, not the final one. First you dream, then you work out the dream. Don't let difficult problems stop the peace proces, try to find a solution instead.

I think your regular Ahmed/David Sixpack prefers peace over the current situation.

Put them in the same country, give them equal rights, ensure legal protection of minorities.

All the problems you name can be solved.

The only thing that is lacking at the moment is the will to do it by those in power.

Which is beyond my comprehension and makes me, like every armed conflict does, feel very disappointed in the human race.

[LittleGrizzly]

But the Palestinians do have something to offer: peace = no more waste of human (jewish and palestinian!) lives.

And, thinking long term here, once Palestinians get jobs and build up their part of the newly created country, they will add revenue to the newly created state (taxes).

They get that gain, but almost any nationalist would find it hard to lose or share power in this way, just as one example the water situation, i forget the exact figures but its something like 90-95% of water goes to israelis.

Putting aside what should be done, i can understand israelis (i disagree strongly but i can understand why like with terrorism i guess) not wanting to give up and share resources with what they regard as such a despicable enemy, and after thier fathers and forefather fought so hard to just give it up and allow the arabs a majority

Im trying to think in terms of the average israeli family here, sure they may very well lose a relative either in the military or from an attack, but they get the majority of the water, the majority of the land, and then to have to share all that would drastically cut them back...

And that is what i think is one of the major obstacles, for the majority of israelis peace would involve losing more than continued war will... or at least it must be true for a sizeable minority in the very least...

I think in the end a comfortable life and a majority jewish state are more important to many israelis than the lives peace could save, add in the fact that both leaderships gain power from the conflict and you have the recipe for many years of conflict ahead.... its staggering to think its gone on for so long but i cannot see an end to it anytime soon...

TBH i think the only way peace can ever be achieved is from huge international pressure, i just can't ever see them sorting it out themselves....

[Andres]

TBH i think the only way peace can ever be achieved is from huge international pressure, i just can't ever see them sorting it out themselves....

If a solution has to be obtained by international pressure, then the first thing every country should do, is stop picking sides in this conflict.

[LittleGrizzly]

If a solution has to be obtained by international pressure, then the first thing every country should do, is stop picking sides in this conflict.

If all countries agreed to not deal with either except to send basic aid (food, water and medicine) its probably the way i would go about it. It almost seems unfair but that would almost exclusively affect isrealis, i doubt most palestinians would notice the difference...

The main obstacles to this however is people with shared religions

American jews refuse to allow thier political leader to abandon thier brothers
Arabs either refuse to allow thier leaders to abandon thier brothers or might just realise they're living in a dictatorship when they stop thinking about israel

The main way i could see it working is an agreemnt between america and the rest of the arab world to stay out of it and not fund thier personal favourite, doesn't china buy military tech off israel ? i don't see them being too quick to put a stop to that...

The international pressure being brought to bear is also a tough one to achieve, easier probably than them sorting it out themselves...

The only way i see it happening is if arabs living in the US manage to become as powerful a lobby as the jewish one, or basically to the point of cancelling each other out, then the US with some arm twisitng could probably convince most people to go along with a world boycott...

TBH my glass is half empty here, even if the arab lobby does become as powerful as the jewish, i don't see the US changing tactics still, and there would just be absolutlely no political will to treat israel so badly (which is how im guessing such actions would play out in us domestic media)

Just a note i pretty much agree with everything you say... think im just too much of a pessimist to believe any of it is possible within the next 10-20 years... maybe even 30 or 40

[LittleGrizzly]

it is not true that israelies cannot live in a majority jewish state without the current status-quo, this is what the whole right to return issue is about. there can indeed be a palestinian state and a majority jewish israel.

Well i was referring to Andres one country idea, which afaik would leave jews a minority....

and they do indeed desire a state of peace, because the conflict is already causing immigrants to return to their country of origin and most of the great jewish emigrations that bolstered jewish numbers in israel in previous decades have already happened, there aren't many more left who are willing to come.

Well its the ones who can stand war the least that will leave, those who desire it the most will stay on and as a result won't israel become less and less a state looking for peace... more and more a state in the hands of the fringe element who for whatever reason (religion, revenge or any racial superority they may believe in)

TBH this just depresses me further as the conflict seems even less solveable!!

Not that i was doubting your fact but do you have any links that confirm this...

S.O.P. all militaries try to manage information inside theatres of operation, this has already been said many times in this thread, stop playing deus-ex.

Don't they all try and downplay the numbers of deaths and numbers of innocents usually as well...

Sounds good to me.

Remember CA, pentiums and oranges ;)

[Fragony]

TBH this just depresses me further as the conflict seems even less solveable!!

If you want the conflict solved then remove the problem, with Hamas out of the way the much more moderate Fatah can take things over in Gaza. This conflict will never stop if you want to please everyone, and what's the problem Hamas broke the truce knowing fully well that everybody will blame Israel anyway because they are uninformed; had to explain to a friend of mine that this wasn't the response to a single mortar attack, he reads quality newspapers so he had no idea of the rockets. If jews control the media they sure do a poor job.

[Andres]

The main obstacles to this however is people with shared religions

Religion has nothing to do with it.

Oh yes, I can hear you all yelling at me : "but religion has everything to do with it!"

No, it hasn't.

Seperation between church and state. Not just on paper, as a way of organising a modern state, but also in the mind.

Seperate religion from it and look at it from a humanist perspective.

It's necessary if we want to get somewhere near something that resembles a solution.

American jews refuse to allow thier political leader to abandon thier brothers

They make the same mistake many make: they pick a side. If we want to help solve this conflict, then don't pick sides.

Arabs either refuse to allow thier leaders to abandon thier brothers or might just realise they're living in a dictatorship when they stop thinking about israel

They make the same mistake many make: they pick a side. If we want to help solve this conflict, then don't pick sides.


If the international community truly wants to seek a solution for this conflict, than not getting involved is not on option I'm afraid. It seems like both parties are too deep into their own mess to keep a clear head. They need help.

But if the international community manages to agree to no longer pick sides (which could well be more than half of the solution in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict... ), then how should we interfere?

Sending a peace keeping force stationed between both parties in combination with a constant, never ending stream of negotiators which keep proposing several (complicated) stateforms (so that the Palestinian and Israelian leaders either come to an agreement or die out of boredom).

Both parties will never agree about who gets what territory, so make it one big country with equal rights, minory protection, veto rights for several groups on several issues.

TBH my glass is half empty here, even if the arab lobby does become as powerful as the jewish, i don't see the US changing tactics still, and there would just be absolutlely no political will to treat israel so badly (which is how im guessing such actions would play out in us domestic media)

Just a note i pretty much agree with everything you say... think im just too much of a pessimist to believe any of it is possible within the next 10-20 years... maybe even 30 or 40

Pessimism will get us nowhere

I try to keep in mind that the regular Ahmed/David Sixpack does not want war. Nobody in their sane mind wants war. Only evil men and women abusing the minds of hopeless/naive/good people want war.

There is no such thing as a just cause for war. There simply isn't. War is the summum of absurdity, people don't want war.

I truly believe that the majority of the people living in Israel/Palestina don't want war, but desire peace and an end to their hopeless situation, but the thing is, they don't seem to manage to get those in power to listen to them.

Maybe they'll listen to the international community, which has to end its' own quarrels and petty power games first before starting to help to find a solution.

[rory_20_uk]

Has Israel asked the UN to police the border instead of it's own troops?

[Tribesman]

because the conflict is already causing immigrants to return to their country of origin and most of the great jewish emigrations that bolstered jewish numbers in israel in previous decades have already happened, there aren't many more left who are willing to come.

Throughout the last century large numbers of immigrants left Palestine/Israel after arriving .
A while ago Adrian posted a piece about Iranian Jews leaving Israel because they were treated like in Israel , add to that the problem with newer immigrants who are moving to Israel just to get an Israeli passport so it is easier for them to move on to another country .
I suppose one real irony is the Jewish section of Jerusalem where the long established community is being driven out by the fanatic immigrants from out Hooahs neck of the woods who consider themselves to be the only real Jews .
Crazy isn't it , a bunch of nuts from Brooklyn who don't actually recognise the State of Israel are persecuting the local Jews .
What a screwed up country .

Has Israel asked the UN to police the border instead of it's own troops?

Do the IDF need more target practice or something ?

[Furunculus]

I think in the end a comfortable life and a majority jewish state are more important to many israelis than the lives peace could save, add in the fact that both leaderships gain power from the conflict and you have the recipe for many years of conflict ahead.... its staggering to think its gone on for so long but i cannot see an end to it anytime soon...

it is not true that israelies cannot live in a majority jewish state without the current status-quo, this is what the whole right to return issue is about. there can indeed be a palestinian state and a majority jewish israel.

and they do indeed desire a state of peace, because the conflict is already causing immigrants to return to their country of origin and most of the great jewish emigrations that bolstered jewish numbers in israel in previous decades have already happened, there aren't many more left who are willing to come.

[Incongruous]

Israel failing its own false ceasfire, is what this depraved episode in Israeli history will be remembered as.

The fact is that there was no real ceasfire, Gaza has been under siege for years, its people punished for finally having elected a group unwilling to bend to Western distortions of the truth and Israeli murder. Hamas is the first sign of a political mass will to end the colonial domination of a foreign invader, hell bent on a people's utter ruin, and it was a sign so abhorrent to the West that its media has almost wiped the truth of it from the face of the earth. The most dangerous sign is the constant use of the line, Hamas takeover of Gaza. The words democratic elections are washed away, allowing those in power to persecute with moral impunity (in the West) a people doing what is their's to do by right.

In term sof culture, well, all that was so magnificent about Palestine before the distaster of conquest is forgotten, left out of the picture, instead terrifying men in balaclavas take centre stage, the Ak-47 is their only tool now. Long gone from the Palestinian world are the great secular poets and universities and newspapers. Destroyed by Western Imperialism and Isreali domination. Palestine was a country and it was destroyed.

Also, forgotten is our own past of deperation and struggle, the right to self defence it seems is now reserved for us and our friends. Were the great American patriots alive today, Israel would be their Britain, a towering giant above the pitiful natives struggling for freedom. The Revolutionaries of France would be marching upon Jerusalem decrying the crimes agains man commited by this tyrant.

[Furunculus]

The fact is that there was no real ceasfire, Gaza has been under siege for years, its people punished for finally having elected a group unwilling to bend to Western distortions of the truth and Israeli murder. Hamas is the first sign of a political mass will to end the colonial domination of a foreign invader, hell bent on a people's utter ruin, and it was a sign so abhorrent to the West that its media has almost wiped the truth of it from the face of the earth. The most dangerous sign is the constant use of the line, Hamas takeover of Gaza. The words democratic elections are washed away, allowing those in power to persecute with moral impunity (in the West) a people doing what is their's to do by right.

oh i am deeply aware that Hamas were voted in.

what i have a distinct feeling for is living with the consequences on ones actions, and voting in a ruling 'party' whose agenda is the destruction of your neighbouring 'superpower' is a deeply stupid thing to do.