Some joyous tidings from Israel

**LittleGrizzly** · 01-09-2009, 11:10

this isn't about Palestina it's about Israel, Palestina is just the frontline of the propaganda-war between the west and the east.

I now hamas is supported by various financial backers throughout the middle east, the source of income for the terrorist group is no really all that important, obviously it has some importance but what a terrorist organisation needs more than money if commited fighters ready to die for the cause..

So without palestinians grievances there would be nobody for hamas to recruit to fight israel ?

Or do you disagree ?

We really seem to disagree on basics here so im trying to figure out some basic logic we can both agree to so that we can discuss the issue better... ill get on to trying to dispute or disprove your view if we can some basic agreement on the issues and causes as without a little agreement somewhere we may just end up shouting opposing views at each other... occasionly fun but rather pointless...

**Fragony** · 01-09-2009, 11:23

Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

Or do you disagree ?

Yes, if Palestina was a second Dubai with golden watertaps Israel would still be a jewish state it wouldn't make any difference they would just fire better rockets.

**LittleGrizzly** · 01-09-2009, 11:36

Yes, if Palestina was a second Dubai with golden watertaps Israel would still be a jewish state it wouldn't make any difference they would just fire better rockets.

So even if all palsetinian grievances were met you think

1) they would still attack israel ? and why ? because they have some illogical hatred of jews which is nothing to do with thier grievances ?

2) the population would still be willing to fight and die with and in support of hamas ? or would hamas just operate without palestinians wanting them to ?

**Tribesman** · 01-09-2009, 12:24

wow, no pleasing you. you are actually complaining about a political system that acts responsibly and a military that obeys those responsible political directives. tough crowd.

That comeback might work if the IDF didn't keep getting caught on camera using human shields .

As for a responsible political system , how many rulings by the Israeli supreme court does the government of Israel completely ignore ?
One nice set of repeated rulings that ties in with

Are there no Palestinians in Israel? None? Is there a single Palestinian in Israel leading a relatively normal life?

would be the ruling on the Palestinian refugees in Israel who have had their land stolen and are not allowed to return to it by the government even though the courts have ruled that they must have their land back as the siezure was illegal and must be allowed to return to it .

According to international law, the UN could dispose of this territory more or less as it saw fit.

Not really , there were lots of terms and conditions .
The main conditions broken were the "fair and equitable" and the "it being clearly understood" .
Though it could also be said that the Jewish agency broke its licence to be recognised as an administrative body when it banned settlers from employing locals .

Great! When do we get Prussia back?

Did your country sign a treaty giving Prussia away ?

What about the land we lost after the First World War then? Surely we deserve that back?

Did your country sign a treaty giving that land away ?
If you can find a treaty doing the same for Palestine/Israel then you might have a point .

**Husar** · 01-10-2009, 09:33

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Did your country sign a treaty giving Prussia away ?

Did your country sign a treaty giving that land away ?

They were signed under pressure. Documents signed under pressure are illegal.

There, now give us all that land back please or I'll start firing homemade LEGO rockets into Poland.

Concerning the nice picture with the babies, there are two problems I have with it:
1) the israeli soldiers have a tendency to fire anyway
2) I guess the assault rifles can easily penetrate the first target

so all four of the depicted persons will be dead in the end and what's the whole point of the picture now?

Except of course proving the point that the whole thing is a bloody mess and both sides are being idiots.

**Andres** · 01-09-2009, 11:39

Originally Posted by Fragony

Yes, if Palestina was a second Dubai with golden watertaps Israel would still be a jewish state it wouldn't make any difference they would just fire better rockets.

Just to make sure I understand your viewpoint correctly.

You believe that as long as there are Jews and Arabs in the region, there will be war?

You believe peace between those two groups is not possible and thus there are only two options:
a) one group has to leave, either by moving out are getting eliminated entirely (genocide?);
b) leave as it is (i.e. let them throw rockets at each other every once in a while), since a) is worse than b)?

With a strong preference for b), I assume?

**Fragony** · 01-09-2009, 11:48

Why genocide, Hamas needs to be weakened so the much more moderate Fatah can step up. Talking with Hamas gets you nowhere never did never will, Fatah wants a Palestinian state Hamas wants to destroy Israel, Abbas is someone you can negotiate with they key is in the lock. I am sure Fatah will be more then willing to tie things up with the leftovers after all that has happened.

1) they would still attack israel ? and why ? because they have some illogical hatred of jews which is nothing to do with thier grievances ?

2) the population would still be willing to fight and die with and in support of hamas ? or would hamas just operate without palestinians wanting them to ?

Yes and yes.

**Andres** · 01-09-2009, 11:51

Originally Posted by Fragony

Why genocide, Hamas needs to be weakened so the much more moderate Fatah can step up. Talking with Hamas gets you nowhere never did never will, Fatah wants a Palestinian state Hamas wants to destroy Israel, Abbas is someone you can negotiate with they key is in the lock. I am sure Fatah will be more then willing to tie things up with the leftovers after all that has happened.

In that case, I misunderstood you. Sorry

**LittleGrizzly** · 01-09-2009, 12:03

Yes and yes.

ok, just to clarify those answers (as i worderd the questions badly your yes could mean one of two things)

Is it the palestinian people that would continue to attack israel regardless of grievances being met or hamas ?
and why ?

and for the other question did the yes mean that hamas could still operate in the area regardless of palestinian views or that palestinians would support hamas regardless of thier grievances being met ?

**Fragony** · 01-09-2009, 12:20

Is it the palestinian people that would continue to attack israel regardless of grievances being met or hamas ?
and why ?

Hamas. Because.

and for the other question did the yes mean that hamas could still operate in the area regardless of palestinian views or that palestinians would support hamas regardless of thier grievances being met ?

Yes they could still operate regardless, been to youtube already? Also do a search for Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini while you are there.