Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Fragony]

Why genocide, Hamas needs to be weakened so the much more moderate Fatah can step up. Talking with Hamas gets you nowhere never did never will, Fatah wants a Palestinian state Hamas wants to destroy Israel, Abbas is someone you can negotiate with they key is in the lock. I am sure Fatah will be more then willing to tie things up with the leftovers after all that has happened.

1) they would still attack israel ? and why ? because they have some illogical hatred of jews which is nothing to do with thier grievances ?

2) the population would still be willing to fight and die with and in support of hamas ? or would hamas just operate without palestinians wanting them to ?

Yes and yes.

[Andres]

Why genocide, Hamas needs to be weakened so the much more moderate Fatah can step up. Talking with Hamas gets you nowhere never did never will, Fatah wants a Palestinian state Hamas wants to destroy Israel, Abbas is someone you can negotiate with they key is in the lock. I am sure Fatah will be more then willing to tie things up with the leftovers after all that has happened.

In that case, I misunderstood you. Sorry

[LittleGrizzly]

Yes and yes.

ok, just to clarify those answers (as i worderd the questions badly your yes could mean one of two things)

Is it the palestinian people that would continue to attack israel regardless of grievances being met or hamas ?
and why ?

and for the other question did the yes mean that hamas could still operate in the area regardless of palestinian views or that palestinians would support hamas regardless of thier grievances being met ?

[Fragony]

Is it the palestinian people that would continue to attack israel regardless of grievances being met or hamas ?
and why ?


Hamas. Because.

and for the other question did the yes mean that hamas could still operate in the area regardless of palestinian views or that palestinians would support hamas regardless of thier grievances being met ?

Yes they could still operate regardless, been to youtube already? Also do a search for Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini while you are there.

[Watchman]

Is it the palestinian people that would continue to attack israel regardless of grievances being met or hamas ?
and why ?


Hamas. Because.

and for the other question did the yes mean that hamas could still operate in the area regardless of palestinian views or that palestinians would support hamas regardless of thier grievances being met ?

Yes they could still operate regardless, been to youtube already? Also do a search for Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini while you are there.

Seems to me like your position is more and more collapsing into the reductionist failure of "Arabz/Muslimz iz teh eval", Frags...

[Fragony]

Seems to me like your position is more and more collapsing into the reductionist failure of "Arabz/Muslimz iz teh eval", Frags...

That is your mind playing tricks on you making you see things that aren't there, I sayz Hamas is evil if I thought muslims were evil I wouldn'twant Fatah to step up. I mean how do you guys manage to mentally block what Hamas is pretty clear about? Like water from a duck it just slides off.

[Watchman]

They can rant and rave for cheap populist points all they want; they've thus far been in the position where Realpolitik has not much interfered with it. Such grandiose rhetoric rarely survives long the praxis of governing a society and having to do all the usual associated compromises.

Not that they can even realistically dream of making good of their high-faluting boasts either.

Basically, I flatly refuse to take such bombast at a face value; doubly so based on what I know of Middle Eastern rhetorical culture (which Israel also practices a fair bit), where exaggeration is the accepted norm.

[Andres]

That is your mind playing tricks on you making you see things that aren't there, I sayz Hamas is evil if I thought muslims were evil I wouldn'twant Fatah to step up. I mean how do you guys manage to mentally block what Hamas is pretty clear about? Like water from a duck it just slides off.

Well, I don't think Hamas is the main problem. Kill each and every member of Hamas and I'm pretty sure there will be several new Palestinian organisations ready to attack Israel in no time.

Hamas itself isn't the problem, it's merely a symptom of something deeper.

The problem is that thus far, for decades, both parties have always been using violence to try to solve their conflict.

As long as bullets and rockets are floating through the air, nothing will ever change.

And somebody has to be the first to stop shooting. Killing people is not the solution (One would think that after decades of killing, both parties would understand that by now, but alas ).

I am outraged about these attacks by Israel, just like I'm outraged by any attack from terrorists.

The worst mistake you can make as an outsider is picking a side in this conflict.

[LittleGrizzly]

Hamas. Because.

Because.... ?

To get someone to put thier life on the line (or literally give up in case of suicide bombing) takes very real grievances and heartache, people aren't simply willing to give up thier lives because they dislike a group, otherwise BNP woyuld be suicide bombing moques regularly. I would agree that thier rich backers (some or most of them) would keep going and thier leaders who are in it for themselves...

But do you think they can convince enough average people* without any grievances to put thier life on the line ?

If yes why would these average people throw thier lives away to kill a few israelis ? is there some kind of palestinian gene which makes them want to kill isrealis regardless of what thier lives are like ?

*they need them as thier basic foot solidiers and suicide bombers, millionaires aren't going to put thier lives on the line

Yes they could still operate regardless

theres 2 problems i have with that

1) Hamas needs regular palestinians as its foot solidiers and suicide bombers, i can accept that hamas leaders (some or most maybe) would want to keep going without any good reason, and that thier rich backers would still want thier proxy war, but without palestinian support where do they get thier grunts ?

2) Hamas needs palestinians to cooperate to help them function within the area, firstly they need to hide among the population and an unfriendly native population would simply tell the israelis where people are. Secondly hamas takes great losses all the time, what keeps it going is an unhappy native population to recruit from so it can replace all its losses, without this recruitment pool they simply die off....

been to youtube already?

Yeah... was watching some hungarian teacher stripping.... in all honesty i now what you were talking about anyway, you'll need to tell me what your paticular point about palestinian killing palestinians was, i already now it happens...

Also do a search for Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini while you are there.

If you want to make a paticular point about his actions or something he's said i will humor you and go and watch...

but i get the feeling he's just going to be an extremist with some fiery rhetoric, which tells me what exactly... that theres some crazy people out there ? that palestinians are crazy or just that hamas is crazy... ?

For example i could link you to some BNP leader saying about how all he wants to do is kill pakistanis* what would this prove exactly ? that all british are racist nutters ? or that certain conditions have led to some of the extreme elements in our society to extremity ?