Some joyous tidings from Israel

[LittleGrizzly]

this isn't about Palestina it's about Israel, Palestina is just the frontline of the propaganda-war between the west and the east.

I now hamas is supported by various financial backers throughout the middle east, the source of income for the terrorist group is no really all that important, obviously it has some importance but what a terrorist organisation needs more than money if commited fighters ready to die for the cause..

So without palestinians grievances there would be nobody for hamas to recruit to fight israel ?

Or do you disagree ?

We really seem to disagree on basics here so im trying to figure out some basic logic we can both agree to so that we can discuss the issue better... ill get on to trying to dispute or disprove your view if we can some basic agreement on the issues and causes as without a little agreement somewhere we may just end up shouting opposing views at each other... occasionly fun but rather pointless...

[Fragony]

Or do you disagree ?

Yes, if Palestina was a second Dubai with golden watertaps Israel would still be a jewish state it wouldn't make any difference they would just fire better rockets.

[LittleGrizzly]

Yes, if Palestina was a second Dubai with golden watertaps Israel would still be a jewish state it wouldn't make any difference they would just fire better rockets.

So even if all palsetinian grievances were met you think

1) they would still attack israel ? and why ? because they have some illogical hatred of jews which is nothing to do with thier grievances ?

2) the population would still be willing to fight and die with and in support of hamas ? or would hamas just operate without palestinians wanting them to ?

[Andres]

Yes, if Palestina was a second Dubai with golden watertaps Israel would still be a jewish state it wouldn't make any difference they would just fire better rockets.

Just to make sure I understand your viewpoint correctly.

You believe that as long as there are Jews and Arabs in the region, there will be war?

You believe peace between those two groups is not possible and thus there are only two options:
a) one group has to leave, either by moving out are getting eliminated entirely (genocide?);
b) leave as it is (i.e. let them throw rockets at each other every once in a while), since a) is worse than b)?

With a strong preference for b), I assume?

[Fragony]

Why genocide, Hamas needs to be weakened so the much more moderate Fatah can step up. Talking with Hamas gets you nowhere never did never will, Fatah wants a Palestinian state Hamas wants to destroy Israel, Abbas is someone you can negotiate with they key is in the lock. I am sure Fatah will be more then willing to tie things up with the leftovers after all that has happened.

1) they would still attack israel ? and why ? because they have some illogical hatred of jews which is nothing to do with thier grievances ?

2) the population would still be willing to fight and die with and in support of hamas ? or would hamas just operate without palestinians wanting them to ?

Yes and yes.

[Husar]

Sure no problem.

the point isn't that Hamas are actually nice guys, the point is that when you throw 500pound bombs into civilian areas, your usual excuse of "surgical strikes" stops working and your "collateral damage" are whole families who may have nothing to do with Hamas


How many percent of the Gaza population are children? 60 or so? Even more? And how many percent of these casualties are children? Does that sound like just throwing daisy-cutters on civilian area's to you? Yes surgical strikes.

Oh, no sounds, just pictures.

the funny thing is that the description saying missiles on the first picture is clearly wrong because as you can see these things look a lot more like bombs, simple bombs. And what do you call several bombs falling to the ground in succession? Yes, carpet bombing...
Oh and btw carpet bombing does not equal surgical strike.
Neither does shelling them with artillery or blowing up a mobile medical clinic.
And if you had such large craters in your body after a surgery, I'd sue the surgeon my friend.

Look, I approve of shooting those Hamas rocketeers by going in with guns etc. but leave the civilians alone, don't beat them or anything and concentrate on actual surgical strikes targeting those who actually do fire those nasty rockets into israel that can't even damage a road (but still kill people).

And by the way, the israeli army looks like a bunch of rebel scum on those pics( ), isn't there anything more to their uniform than "it has to be warm and look kinda green"?

[Andres]

Why genocide, Hamas needs to be weakened so the much more moderate Fatah can step up. Talking with Hamas gets you nowhere never did never will, Fatah wants a Palestinian state Hamas wants to destroy Israel, Abbas is someone you can negotiate with they key is in the lock. I am sure Fatah will be more then willing to tie things up with the leftovers after all that has happened.

In that case, I misunderstood you. Sorry

[LittleGrizzly]

Yes and yes.

ok, just to clarify those answers (as i worderd the questions badly your yes could mean one of two things)

Is it the palestinian people that would continue to attack israel regardless of grievances being met or hamas ?
and why ?

and for the other question did the yes mean that hamas could still operate in the area regardless of palestinian views or that palestinians would support hamas regardless of thier grievances being met ?

[Fragony]

Is it the palestinian people that would continue to attack israel regardless of grievances being met or hamas ?
and why ?


Hamas. Because.

and for the other question did the yes mean that hamas could still operate in the area regardless of palestinian views or that palestinians would support hamas regardless of thier grievances being met ?

Yes they could still operate regardless, been to youtube already? Also do a search for Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini while you are there.

[Tribesman]

wow, no pleasing you. you are actually complaining about a political system that acts responsibly and a military that obeys those responsible political directives. tough crowd.

That comeback might work if the IDF didn't keep getting caught on camera using human shields .
As for a responsible political system , how many rulings by the Israeli supreme court does the government of Israel completely ignore ?
One nice set of repeated rulings that ties in with

Are there no Palestinians in Israel? None? Is there a single Palestinian in Israel leading a relatively normal life?

would be the ruling on the Palestinian refugees in Israel who have had their land stolen and are not allowed to return to it by the government even though the courts have ruled that they must have their land back as the siezure was illegal and must be allowed to return to it .

According to international law, the UN could dispose of this territory more or less as it saw fit.

Not really , there were lots of terms and conditions .
The main conditions broken were the "fair and equitable" and the "it being clearly understood" .
Though it could also be said that the Jewish agency broke its licence to be recognised as an administrative body when it banned settlers from employing locals .

Great! When do we get Prussia back?

Did your country sign a treaty giving Prussia away ?

What about the land we lost after the First World War then? Surely we deserve that back?

Did your country sign a treaty giving that land away ?
If you can find a treaty doing the same for Palestine/Israel then you might have a point .

[Watchman]

Is it the palestinian people that would continue to attack israel regardless of grievances being met or hamas ?
and why ?


Hamas. Because.

and for the other question did the yes mean that hamas could still operate in the area regardless of palestinian views or that palestinians would support hamas regardless of thier grievances being met ?

Yes they could still operate regardless, been to youtube already? Also do a search for Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini while you are there.

Seems to me like your position is more and more collapsing into the reductionist failure of "Arabz/Muslimz iz teh eval", Frags...

[Fragony]

Seems to me like your position is more and more collapsing into the reductionist failure of "Arabz/Muslimz iz teh eval", Frags...

That is your mind playing tricks on you making you see things that aren't there, I sayz Hamas is evil if I thought muslims were evil I wouldn'twant Fatah to step up. I mean how do you guys manage to mentally block what Hamas is pretty clear about? Like water from a duck it just slides off.

[Watchman]

They can rant and rave for cheap populist points all they want; they've thus far been in the position where Realpolitik has not much interfered with it. Such grandiose rhetoric rarely survives long the praxis of governing a society and having to do all the usual associated compromises.

Not that they can even realistically dream of making good of their high-faluting boasts either.

Basically, I flatly refuse to take such bombast at a face value; doubly so based on what I know of Middle Eastern rhetorical culture (which Israel also practices a fair bit), where exaggeration is the accepted norm.

[Fragony]

They can rant and rave for cheap populist points all they want; they've thus far been in the position where Realpolitik has not much interfered with it. Such grandiose rhetoric rarely survives long the praxis of governing a society and having to do all the usual associated compromises.

Not that they can even realistically dream of making good of their high-faluting boasts either.

Basically, I flatly refuse to take such bombast at a face value; doubly so based on what I know of Middle Eastern rhetorical culture (which Israel also practices a fair bit), where exaggeration is the accepted norm.

Well if the rethoric fails to impress you how about the thousands of rockets. Hamas are scum, here for example of one of these schools that has European quality media slipping of their chairs with pacifist desire.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtgiRR0iDM

[LittleGrizzly]

Hamas. Because.

Because.... ?

To get someone to put thier life on the line (or literally give up in case of suicide bombing) takes very real grievances and heartache, people aren't simply willing to give up thier lives because they dislike a group, otherwise BNP woyuld be suicide bombing moques regularly. I would agree that thier rich backers (some or most of them) would keep going and thier leaders who are in it for themselves...

But do you think they can convince enough average people* without any grievances to put thier life on the line ?

If yes why would these average people throw thier lives away to kill a few israelis ? is there some kind of palestinian gene which makes them want to kill isrealis regardless of what thier lives are like ?

*they need them as thier basic foot solidiers and suicide bombers, millionaires aren't going to put thier lives on the line

Yes they could still operate regardless

theres 2 problems i have with that

1) Hamas needs regular palestinians as its foot solidiers and suicide bombers, i can accept that hamas leaders (some or most maybe) would want to keep going without any good reason, and that thier rich backers would still want thier proxy war, but without palestinian support where do they get thier grunts ?

2) Hamas needs palestinians to cooperate to help them function within the area, firstly they need to hide among the population and an unfriendly native population would simply tell the israelis where people are. Secondly hamas takes great losses all the time, what keeps it going is an unhappy native population to recruit from so it can replace all its losses, without this recruitment pool they simply die off....

been to youtube already?

Yeah... was watching some hungarian teacher stripping.... in all honesty i now what you were talking about anyway, you'll need to tell me what your paticular point about palestinian killing palestinians was, i already now it happens...

Also do a search for Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini while you are there.

If you want to make a paticular point about his actions or something he's said i will humor you and go and watch...

but i get the feeling he's just going to be an extremist with some fiery rhetoric, which tells me what exactly... that theres some crazy people out there ? that palestinians are crazy or just that hamas is crazy... ?

For example i could link you to some BNP leader saying about how all he wants to do is kill pakistanis* what would this prove exactly ? that all british are racist nutters ? or that certain conditions have led to some of the extreme elements in our society to extremity ?

[Watchman]

Well if the rethoric fails to impress you how about the thousands of rockets. Hamas are scum, here for example of one of these schools that has European quality media slipping of their chairs with pacifist desire.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtgiRR0iDM

Thousands of rockets that achieve crap all. The suicide bombers were rather more effective on the average, I seem to recall.

Care to tell me, how many bombs and such did the PLO set off during its history ? Calmed down a fair bit now. The IRA ? Ditto. Same thing. Hamas is just in a different phase of its organisational life-cycle, namely the "blood and guts fighting" one rather than the "acceptable compromise reached" one.

As for them kiddies, bah. Did you already forget what was posted earlier on this thread about the Zionistjugend of the militant Israeli colonists on the West Bank ? Pot, kettle. The terrifying Hamas Preschool Brigade at least isn't out doing bad things to people and property...

[Fragony]

Thousands of rockets that achieve crap all.

Actually they are breeding a whole new type of jew, jewish children who grew up under constant threat of rocket-attacks, who realise that no matter what they do the world will condemn them, and they will stop caring. It's achieving a whole lot.

The unheard;

http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/fendel/e...stinian_rocket

[Andres]

That is your mind playing tricks on you making you see things that aren't there, I sayz Hamas is evil if I thought muslims were evil I wouldn'twant Fatah to step up. I mean how do you guys manage to mentally block what Hamas is pretty clear about? Like water from a duck it just slides off.

Well, I don't think Hamas is the main problem. Kill each and every member of Hamas and I'm pretty sure there will be several new Palestinian organisations ready to attack Israel in no time.

Hamas itself isn't the problem, it's merely a symptom of something deeper.

The problem is that thus far, for decades, both parties have always been using violence to try to solve their conflict.

As long as bullets and rockets are floating through the air, nothing will ever change.

And somebody has to be the first to stop shooting. Killing people is not the solution (One would think that after decades of killing, both parties would understand that by now, but alas ).

I am outraged about these attacks by Israel, just like I'm outraged by any attack from terrorists.

The worst mistake you can make as an outsider is picking a side in this conflict.

[Watchman]

Actually they are breeding a whole new type of jew, jewish children who grew up under constant threat of rocket-attacks, who realise that no matter what they do the world will condemn them, and they will stop caring. It's achieving a whole lot.

The unheard;

http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/fendel/e...stinian_rocket

They didn't seem to care too much back in '48 already, though.
Massive tears.
That also begs the question of what do you suppose it does to the Palestinian kids to have the IDF playing at live-fire urban renewal around their neighbourhood every few months...?

[Fragony]

They didn't seem to care too much back in '48 already, though.
Massive tears.


Being exterminated does odd things to people, funny how you can't bring up any understanding for that, being exterminated is somewhat more then being harrased while at your daily stone-throwing festivities.

That also begs the question of what do you suppose it does to the Palestinian kids to have the IDF playing at live-fire urban renewal around their neighbourhood every few months...?

Yes the obvious and expected counter, but Israel isn't the agressor Israel is the victim. The minute the state was made the arab states were out for it's extermination, what could be the difference with Jordan, Iraq, Syria and all the other new states? Take a pick

a) It was the best piece of land
b) it is a jewish state.
c) I want to say Gah.

Killing people is not the solution

Yes it is

[Andres]

Killing people is not the solution

Yes it is

Well, both sides have been trying that approach for decades now and it doesn't seem to work

Unless peace in the region is not what you desire, then killing people is ok, I guess.

[Fragony]

Well, both sides have been trying that approach for decades now and it doesn't seem to work

Unless peace in the region is not what you desire, then killing people is ok, I guess.

If Israel wanted arabs dead they would be dead. If Israel wants Hamas dead Hamas would be dead, but European expect Israel to behave to our oh-so-recent standards in a place on earth that isn't anywhere like oh-so-recent Europe. That annoys me to no end it's so incredibly unfair why don't we aproach the world the way it is instead how how salon-socialists want it to be?

[Tribesman]

but Israel isn't the agressor Israel is the victim.

Bollox , it is both

The minute the state was made the arab states were out for it's extermination

No they were not . Besides which the State you talk of being made has never actually existed .

Yes it is

Is that the final solution you are pushing Frag ?

[Tribesman]

If Israel wants Hamas dead Hamas would be dead

Israel needs Hamas , thats why it doesn't want it dead .
Just like Hamas needs Israel or it wouldn't exist.

[Andres]

If Israel wanted arabs dead they would be dead. If Israel wants Hamas dead Hamas would be dead, but European expect Israel to behave to our oh-so-recent standards in a place on earth that isn't anywhere like oh-so-recent Europe. That annoys me to no end it's so incredibly unfair why don't we aproach the world the way it is instead how how salon-socialists want it to be?

Well, the region we are discussing would be much better of if it was entirely inhabited by jewish and arab salon socialists.

Yes, it would get boring after a while, listening to all those self righteous who think they know it all, patronising everybody who dares to come near them and just keep blah blah blah-ing until you would start crying and beg them to please keep their nonsense and naive fairy tales of peace for them for at least 5 minutes.

But they wouldn't be killing each other...

[Fragony]

No they were not . Besides which the State you talk of being made has never actually existed .

Neither did Belgium.

Is that the final solution you are pushing Frag ?

If that final solution would be Hamas, then yes. If it's the Palestinians, then no.

Israel needs Hamas , thats why it doesn't want it dead .
Just like Hamas needs Israel or it wouldn't exist.


True, so we have now made a full circle and it all comes together, hence my claim that the Palestine is just the frontline of the propaganda war between the west and the east, tada.

[LittleGrizzly]

BTW frag i had a few questions if you would be so kind, not just out to score points it is good to now what the 'other side' believes...

Actually they are breeding a whole new type of jew, jewish children who grew up under constant threat of rocket-attacks, who realise that no matter what they do the world will condemn them, and they will stop caring. It's achieving a whole lot.

Actually they are breeding a whole new type of paelstinian, palestinian children who grew up under constant threat of rocket-attacks, who realise that no matter what they do Israel will attack them, and they will stop caring. It's achieving a whole lot.

Being exterminated does odd things to people, funny how you can't bring up any understanding for that, being exterminated is somewhat more then being harrased while at your daily stone-throwing festivities.

Are you trying to claim israeli's are being exterminated whilst palestinians simply have thier stone throwing activities disturbed ?!

You couldn't call either an extermination but the statement would much more accurately describe the palestinian plight than the israeli one. Unfortunately for those with a pro israeli viewpoint numbers DO matter when it comes to words like extermination...

what could be the difference with Jordan, Iraq, Syria and all the other new states? Take a pick

a) It was the best piece of land
b) it is a jewish state.
c) I want to say Gah.

errm, you missed the obvious one... D) A bunch of foriegners coming in and creating a new country* and displacing the local population

Yes the others where also new countrys but they were simply a big empire divided into much smaller sections without much real effect to the natives, israel was something completely different

Killing people is not the solution

Yes it is

So tell me, do you think terrorism can be defeated simply by killing terrorists, because its an absurd idea, without addressing the underlying problems as well you simply create more terrorists...

Though admittedly if you kill off the entire palestinian population there would be no palestinian terrorism, seen as noone actually wants to do that (or pretty much noone) it basically means that terrorism can't stopped by just killing terrorists...

but Israel isn't the agressor Israel is the victim.

It isn't really a victim, through its continued taking off more and more land, complete control of basic resources and making the palestinians in some of the worst conditions in the world they have brought it on themselves...

In terms of the aggressor in this individual stage of the conflict i have heard conflicting reports, some hamas spokesman said the other day israel launched a raid which killed some hamas leader before they responded with the rockets which caused the israeli response were discussing now.... not that it matters much anyway....

In terms of the aggressor from the conflict at large you can't really put that down to the palestinian people, it was the arab states that went to war with israel, not the plaestinian people but it was then the palestinian people who suffered as a result

so you could say in terms of Arab states vs israel, Arab states are agressor

but in terms of palestinian people vs israel, israel is the aggressor...

That being said im sick of both sides claiming the other started it, they should work from where thier at today, not hark back to some war half a century ago as a good excuse for thier current occupation...

[Fragony]

BTW frag i had a few questions if you would be so kind, not just out to score points it is good to now what the 'other side' believes...

I know you are actually interested in discussion thx for that. You seem to be unwilling to accept such a thing such as pure hate, hate isn't rational and in a rational world hate wouldn't exist but it's not a rational world and hate can exist for no rational reason, but it exists; and for those that can use it hate is just the crowbar. Make no mistake antisemitism is rampant in the islamic world did you ever actually talk to your islamic friends? Just scratch the surface it's there, not because they are bad people there is a whole lot more to it. All the muslims I know are from former Yugoslavia I (yes me) work as a volunteer there we tag them along, they have no reason to hate Israeli's, I would assume they hate us dutchies but they don't, but they all do hate the jews regardless.

[Hooahguy]

No they were not . Besides which the State you talk of being made has never actually existed

it funny that you call me an idiot over this matter but in reality you are so much more clueless than you think you are.

it was british land- arabs owned very little of it. the brits can do whatever they want to it, including giving it to others. if you are saying the UK couldnt give up israel to the jews, i guess jordan doesnt exist either because if im not mistaken, the brits gave that to the arabs.

and to say that the arab states around israel didnt rush to exterminate israel is

[Dutch_guy]

Killing people is not the solution

Yes it is

The thing with killing high Hamas officials is that they usually fill up the spot after the assassination. Hence you get absolutely nowhere because there's always someone to fill the position, possibly more fanatic and cunning than his predecessor. And you can't kill them all anyway, since Israel will never use it's nuclear weapon in this struggle.