Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Andres]

Killing people is not the solution

Yes it is

Well, both sides have been trying that approach for decades now and it doesn't seem to work

Unless peace in the region is not what you desire, then killing people is ok, I guess.

[Fragony]

Well, both sides have been trying that approach for decades now and it doesn't seem to work

Unless peace in the region is not what you desire, then killing people is ok, I guess.

If Israel wanted arabs dead they would be dead. If Israel wants Hamas dead Hamas would be dead, but European expect Israel to behave to our oh-so-recent standards in a place on earth that isn't anywhere like oh-so-recent Europe. That annoys me to no end it's so incredibly unfair why don't we aproach the world the way it is instead how how salon-socialists want it to be?

[Andres]

If Israel wanted arabs dead they would be dead. If Israel wants Hamas dead Hamas would be dead, but European expect Israel to behave to our oh-so-recent standards in a place on earth that isn't anywhere like oh-so-recent Europe. That annoys me to no end it's so incredibly unfair why don't we aproach the world the way it is instead how how salon-socialists want it to be?

Well, the region we are discussing would be much better of if it was entirely inhabited by jewish and arab salon socialists.

Yes, it would get boring after a while, listening to all those self righteous who think they know it all, patronising everybody who dares to come near them and just keep blah blah blah-ing until you would start crying and beg them to please keep their nonsense and naive fairy tales of peace for them for at least 5 minutes.

But they wouldn't be killing each other...

[Tribesman]

but Israel isn't the agressor Israel is the victim.

Bollox , it is both

The minute the state was made the arab states were out for it's extermination

No they were not . Besides which the State you talk of being made has never actually existed .

Yes it is

Is that the final solution you are pushing Frag ?

[Tribesman]

If Israel wants Hamas dead Hamas would be dead

Israel needs Hamas , thats why it doesn't want it dead .
Just like Hamas needs Israel or it wouldn't exist.

[Fragony]

No they were not . Besides which the State you talk of being made has never actually existed .

Neither did Belgium.

Is that the final solution you are pushing Frag ?

If that final solution would be Hamas, then yes. If it's the Palestinians, then no.

Israel needs Hamas , thats why it doesn't want it dead .
Just like Hamas needs Israel or it wouldn't exist.


True, so we have now made a full circle and it all comes together, hence my claim that the Palestine is just the frontline of the propaganda war between the west and the east, tada.

[Hooahguy]

No they were not . Besides which the State you talk of being made has never actually existed

it funny that you call me an idiot over this matter but in reality you are so much more clueless than you think you are.

it was british land- arabs owned very little of it. the brits can do whatever they want to it, including giving it to others. if you are saying the UK couldnt give up israel to the jews, i guess jordan doesnt exist either because if im not mistaken, the brits gave that to the arabs.

and to say that the arab states around israel didnt rush to exterminate israel is

[Tribesman]

it funny that you call me an idiot over this matter but in reality you are so much more clueless than you think you are.

Really ?

it was british land

You fall at the first step .

arabs owned very little of it

bloody hell should you have even entered the race ? you fall again , it was the Jews and Jewish agency that owned very little , depending on whose figures you use they owned between 6&8% of the land

the brits can do whatever they want to it

start with something simple like reading the terms of the mandate , then maybe go earlier and read the provisional mandate .

and to say that the arab states around israel didnt rush to exterminate israel is

You remember mentioning research earlier , perhaps you might try some

[Fragony]

So the alternative history.... it just isn't true, part one;":creation cause and effect, a complete history"

[Banquo's Ghost]

It is strange that some posters who support the Israeli actions seem to be keen on Fatah. After all, they are hardly clean of blood.

Not that it matters, as Israel is neatly undermining them and strengthening their enemy, Hamas. Just as they have done every time they have tried this military destruction rather than addressing realistic negotiations.

The diplomacy championed by Mr Abbas has for years been difficult to sell to Palestinians because it has brought little or no relief from occupation or improvement in their daily lives, only the expansion of Israeli settlements. This existing frustration –which helped Hamas defeat Mr Abbas's Fatah movement in the 2006 elections – is now combined with popular anger and dismay at the carnage among fellow Palestinians in Gaza.

It has long been my position that the Palestinians should protest non-violently, in the belief that such resistance would finally invoke the consciences of those who hold power. Having taken note of the cynics, I have held to that belief in spite of mounting evidence of its naïveté.

Several instances during this campaign have caused me to question whether in fact, the Israeli forces and government have now crossed the line into considering their opponents entirely sub-human and undeserving of humanity. Not the militants, but every last person.

The ICRC has reported that their ambulances were stopped from going to the aid of the dead and wounded for several days, and the aid workers forced to walk a kilometre to find starving children next to the bodies of their parents. Though no fighting was going on (despite half-hearted Israeli PR insistence) not a finger was lifted by the military right next door to the children. Donkey carts had to be utilised to bring out the dead and wounded because the ambulances still weren't allowed through.

In another incident, Palestinian civilians were specifically ordered to stay inside a building by the IDF for their safety. The next day, this building was shelled, killing thirty or more. This was reported by B'Tselem, a highly respected Israeli human rights organisation.

Both these events are war crimes and in direct contravention of international law. The cavalier disregard of innocent people in suffering speaks of a dehumanisation of the Palestinian people in Israeli eyes.

The ICRC is very rarely pushed to criticising the activities of combatants publicly and is regarded as completely neutral by governments around the world, so the chants of bias being readied fail.

There is no excuse for these acts, and Israel, no doubt will have another series of government enquiries that will condemn their actions - and get ignored ready for the next time. Equally without doubt is that some here will excuse them as being in a war, but this is not a mediaeval totalwar computer simulation and Israel is a state with ratified treaties committing itself to international law and its observance. The saddest irony is that much of the development of international conflict law was generated by the atrocities perpetrated on their own forebears.

Once dehumanisation is in place, there is no choice but armed struggle, because one cannot "negotiate" with animals. The Palestinian terror groups have long made this mistake, treating Israelis with utter disdain, as if all are faceless imperialists. Sadly, it seems the circle is now complete - and in the hearts of the one people on God's green earth that should know better.

[LittleGrizzly]

The diplomacy championed by Mr Abbas has for years been difficult to sell to Palestinians because it has brought little or no relief from occupation or improvement in their daily lives, only the expansion of Israeli settlements.

Which is why abandoning terrorism is fairly pointless for the palestinians, they come off even worse when both sides turn to violence, but at least they get to cut the enemy and get a leg blown off in return, rather than sitting there and being bled whilst doing nothing...

Out of interest why if Fatah and mr Abbas are something better do the israelis continue to do exactly as they please ? is it because terrorism was just an excuse for the land and resource grabbing israel has practiced since its exsistence...

Edit: getting round to the rest of the points shortly, just needed to say this one now...

[Ronin]

Both these events are war crimes and in direct contravention of international law. The cavalier disregard of innocent people in suffering speaks of a dehumanisation of the Palestinian people in Israeli eyes.

this is hardly surprising to me....I have been to Israel twice on work, and both times I stayed there for about a month's time.
I work in the IT business and the sort of things I heard about the Palestinians from the Israelis I was working with led me to believe that they simply didn´t have any regard for them as human beings, and these were highly educated people I was working with.
The kind of things I was told, poorly disguised in the jokes I would hear at lunch time, could only be characterized as racism in any other country I have ever been in.

[Xiahou]

The ICRC has reported that their ambulances were stopped from going to the aid of the dead and wounded for several days, and the aid workers forced to walk a kilometre to find starving children next to the bodies of their parents. Though no fighting was going on (despite half-hearted Israeli PR insistence) not a finger was lifted by the military right next door to the children. Donkey carts had to be utilised to bring out the dead and wounded because the ambulances still weren't allowed through.

In another incident, Palestinian civilians were specifically ordered to stay inside a building by the IDF for their safety. The next day, this building was shelled, killing thirty or more. This was reported by B'Tselem, a highly respected Israeli human rights organisation.

These incidents would be a lot easier to get outraged over, were it not for tendencies on the part of Hamas to use ambulances as troop transports and schools, hospitals and even their own mosques as weapons caches and bunkers.

[LittleGrizzly]

BTW frag i had a few questions if you would be so kind, not just out to score points it is good to now what the 'other side' believes...

Actually they are breeding a whole new type of jew, jewish children who grew up under constant threat of rocket-attacks, who realise that no matter what they do the world will condemn them, and they will stop caring. It's achieving a whole lot.

Actually they are breeding a whole new type of paelstinian, palestinian children who grew up under constant threat of rocket-attacks, who realise that no matter what they do Israel will attack them, and they will stop caring. It's achieving a whole lot.

Being exterminated does odd things to people, funny how you can't bring up any understanding for that, being exterminated is somewhat more then being harrased while at your daily stone-throwing festivities.

Are you trying to claim israeli's are being exterminated whilst palestinians simply have thier stone throwing activities disturbed ?!

You couldn't call either an extermination but the statement would much more accurately describe the palestinian plight than the israeli one. Unfortunately for those with a pro israeli viewpoint numbers DO matter when it comes to words like extermination...

what could be the difference with Jordan, Iraq, Syria and all the other new states? Take a pick

a) It was the best piece of land
b) it is a jewish state.
c) I want to say Gah.

errm, you missed the obvious one... D) A bunch of foriegners coming in and creating a new country* and displacing the local population

Yes the others where also new countrys but they were simply a big empire divided into much smaller sections without much real effect to the natives, israel was something completely different

Killing people is not the solution

Yes it is

So tell me, do you think terrorism can be defeated simply by killing terrorists, because its an absurd idea, without addressing the underlying problems as well you simply create more terrorists...

Though admittedly if you kill off the entire palestinian population there would be no palestinian terrorism, seen as noone actually wants to do that (or pretty much noone) it basically means that terrorism can't stopped by just killing terrorists...

but Israel isn't the agressor Israel is the victim.

It isn't really a victim, through its continued taking off more and more land, complete control of basic resources and making the palestinians in some of the worst conditions in the world they have brought it on themselves...

In terms of the aggressor in this individual stage of the conflict i have heard conflicting reports, some hamas spokesman said the other day israel launched a raid which killed some hamas leader before they responded with the rockets which caused the israeli response were discussing now.... not that it matters much anyway....

In terms of the aggressor from the conflict at large you can't really put that down to the palestinian people, it was the arab states that went to war with israel, not the plaestinian people but it was then the palestinian people who suffered as a result

so you could say in terms of Arab states vs israel, Arab states are agressor

but in terms of palestinian people vs israel, israel is the aggressor...

That being said im sick of both sides claiming the other started it, they should work from where thier at today, not hark back to some war half a century ago as a good excuse for thier current occupation...

[Fragony]

BTW frag i had a few questions if you would be so kind, not just out to score points it is good to now what the 'other side' believes...

I know you are actually interested in discussion thx for that. You seem to be unwilling to accept such a thing such as pure hate, hate isn't rational and in a rational world hate wouldn't exist but it's not a rational world and hate can exist for no rational reason, but it exists; and for those that can use it hate is just the crowbar. Make no mistake antisemitism is rampant in the islamic world did you ever actually talk to your islamic friends? Just scratch the surface it's there, not because they are bad people there is a whole lot more to it. All the muslims I know are from former Yugoslavia I (yes me) work as a volunteer there we tag them along, they have no reason to hate Israeli's, I would assume they hate us dutchies but they don't, but they all do hate the jews regardless.