Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Fragony]

Do you mean the medicine from other countries that has to pass through Israel ?

Yes these, what happened to the other border? Egypt? Should be a piece of cake to organise aid if their arab brother didn't care so very very deeply. Everything quiet on the non-western front.

[Tribesman]

Yes these, what happened to the other border? Egypt?

As yes , you mean the single crossing at Rafah that is run through treaty by joint operations by Egypt Israel the EU and the PA .
Damn Frag thats a bloody good question . That really needs some thought to answer .
Well lets see , why isn't aid coming up from that crossing ?
Errrrrr......before the elections it was closed by israel nearly 90% of the time , since the elections it has been closed entirely by Israel and the EU .
Like you say its a piece of cake for their arab brethren to ship stuff up from Egypt , if the crossing wasn't closed of course .

Would you like to try another question ? perhaps one that makes sense .

[Tribesman]

What is wrong with that statement, it appears to be perfectly accurate?

wow so many hard questions .
to extricate Israel from the quagmire in the occupied territories
They didn't , simple as that .
They pulled 8000 illegal settlers out of the occupied territories and put 12000 illegal settlers into the occupied territories , that is not extricating from the quagmire it is getting deeper into it .

[Furunculus]

wow so many hard questions .
to extricate Israel from the quagmire in the occupied territories
They didn't , simple as that .
They pulled 8000 illegal settlers out of the occupied territories and put 12000 illegal settlers into the occupied territories , that is not extricating from the quagmire it is getting deeper into it .

it is if it forms part of a process whereby israel de-legitimises settlement in the occupied territories.

[Tribesman]

If the individual does not have confidence that his community will render decisions he can abide by then he should leave.

How does someone leave if they are stuck in an open air prison ?

it is if it forms part of a process whereby israel de-legitimises settlement in the occupied territories.

So it isn't then is it as Israel continues to expand the illegal settlements doesn't it .
Sharons government who that article claims was pulling out of the quagmire put out tenders for the construction of 55 new settlements .
Olmerts government has put out tenders for another 7 .
and that is only the official ones , it doesn't count groups like the Kahane offshoot "hilltop youth " who just park a couple of caravans surround them with razor wire and claim that they have just made more Israel .
The settler population has gone 22,000 in the west bank a short while back to 282,000 ,
East Jerusalem has gone from 76,000 to 184,000 and Golan has gone from 7,000 to 18,000 .

If you consider that an act of de-legitimising settlement you have a rather strange view of things .

[Furunculus]

If the individual does not have confidence that his community will render decisions he can abide by then he should leave.

However I do recognise that the rest of the world treats Gazans as something akin to dog-dirt, a fact which makes it very difficult for a Gazan to leave his community if he cannot abide the decisions to be taken in his name.

I find myself with little sympathy for the Gazan people that elected Hamas, and a great deal of sympathy for those that did not.

How does someone leave if they are stuck in an open air prison ?

read. and. learn.

[Fragony]

As yes , you mean the single crossing at Rafah that is run through treaty by joint operations by Egypt Israel the EU and the PA .

So, this is indeed a bit bigger then Palestine, as I said earlier, and blaming Israel for all this would be pretty narrowminded

[Tribesman]

So, this is indeed a bit bigger then Palestine, as I said earlier, and blaming Israel for all this would be pretty narrowminded

Just like blaming Arabs Muslims Palestinians or Hamas is .
Hey Frag does that mean you a really narrowminded ?

[Fragony]

Just like blaming Arabs Muslims Palestinians or Hamas is .
Hey Frag does that mean you a really narrowminded ?

"Arabs Muslims Palestinians" I don't blame them I just don't feel sorry for them. Blaming Hamas for current events, absolutely yes.

[Banquo's Ghost]

For those who like to characterise Israel as an unthinking bully by drawing comparisons that are odious, it might help your reflections to read this editorial from Haaretz.

The lessons of previous wars, during which the IDF destroyed infrastructure targets and the homes of civilians but did not gain the quiet it had sought, have not been internalized. Israel's justified rationale in acting against rocket launchers has been increasingly damaged over two weeks. The legitimacy and understanding extended to Israel melt away amid the pictures of killing and ruin. Accusations of war crimes are already being bandied about in Israel. This war needs to move immediately to the diplomatic track and agreements that will end the fantasies and delusions of both sides.

Just as the argument that all Gazans deserve punishment because some voted for Hamas (one of the wickedest fallacies I have read in some while, as even the hardest of hearts would be unable to stretch that to the 260+ children now dead) it is equally specious to say all Israelis approve of the cruelty being perpetrated by their government.

Generalisations, stereotypes and black/white arguments are precisely the root cause of all this grief - as is the time-honoured inability to recognise that every single victim on both sides had a life and dreams and hopes, just like we might.

[Furunculus]

Just as the argument that all Gazans deserve punishment because some voted for Hamas (one of the wickedest fallacies I have read in some while............

I hope you do not refer to me with that statement, because i certainly do not believe Gazans deserve collective punishment.

My point is that a representative polity functions precisely because the individual delegates responsibility to a political class to act in their name. The individual must therefore take responsibility for the actions committed in his name, and does so in sound conscience because the community have a sufficient pool shared values that decisions made are likely to reflect the will of the individual.
If the individual does not have confidence that his community will render decisions he can abide by then he should leave.
By this reasoning I accept some responsibility for the London bombing given that they were in part a response to the UK's active interference in the affairs of other nations around the world, and I do so because I support the UK sticking its nose into other countries business. The republic of ireland has not to my knowledge been bombed by islamic terrorists, but it does not depose via militarily means the governments of arab/islamic countries at a time when militant islam as an ideology gets its knickers in a twist over western interference.

Gazans did elect a terrorist group whose aim is to destroy the neigbouring 'superpower' and who will launch these attacks from the homes and hospices of the community they were elected to govern, which leads me to believe the Gazan polity is intrinsically stupid.
However I do recognise that the rest of the world treats Gazans as something akin to dog-dirt, a fact which makes it very difficult for a Gazan to leave his community if he cannot abide the decisions to be taken in his name.

Given that national and international law allows for the following:
> a nation state to engage in military action designed to achieve a military advantage with the aim of defending ones citizens from attack (i.e. counter-battery fire at a Hamas launch site, even if there might be civilians there).
> that the legal liability for the death of a human shield lies with the hostage taker and not the rescuer who kills the hostage by accident (i.e. Hamas launching rockets from homes and hospices and schools of the Gazan people).
I find myself with little sympathy for the Gazan people that elected Hamas, and a great deal of sympathy for those that did not.

Either way it is:
> a tragedy that Gazan children are dieing
> a cause for question over whether there is sufficient community to forge a valid representative polity out of Gaza
> still legitimate for Israel to defend its citizens via attacking Hamas in Gaza providing they can justify that they can act with sufficient military competence to not create a humanitarian disaster, (which for some people is one dead Gazan civilian while for others that is anything short of decimating the local population in the hope that of accidentally killing the terrorists).

So in short, i do not support collective punishment, if that is what you believe.

[Husar]

So if I was to write "a whale is a big mammal that lives in the sea"
you might respond with "airplanes can be big too"

Looks like a perfectly reasonable chain of association to me.

Just as the argument that all Gazans deserve punishment because some voted for Hamas (one of the wickedest fallacies I have read in some while, as even the hardest of hearts would be unable to stretch that to the 260+ children now dead) it is equally specious to say all Israelis approve of the cruelty being perpetrated by their government.

Generalisations, stereotypes and black/white arguments are precisely the root cause of all this grief - as is the time-honoured inability to recognise that every single victim on both sides had a life and dreams and hopes, just like we might.

[Tribesman]

read. and. learn.

Learn what ?
That you bothered to make a statement even though you knew it was bollox .

I find myself with little sympathy for the Gazan people that elected Hamas, and a great deal of sympathy for those that did not.

Interesting , so you have sympathy for those who voted for a party that is riven by corruption and managed to put forward not a manifesto or a single policy statement despite the efforts of key people who are serving multiple life sentances for terrorism ?
Lets narrow it down shall we Furunculus , voters for which parties or which branches of which parties do you have sympathy for ?
BTW does that also mean you have little sympathy for Israelis who vote for the not very nice parties in Israeli elections ?
Would that mean its OK to bomb those Israelis because they must have asked for it ?

[Furunculus]

Learn what ?
That you bothered to make a statement even though you knew it was bollox .


Interesting , so you have sympathy for those who voted for a party that is riven by corruption and managed to put forward not a manifesto or a single policy statement despite the efforts of key people who are serving multiple life sentances for terrorism ?
Lets narrow it down shall we Furunculus , voters for which parties or which branches of which parties do you have sympathy for ?
BTW does that also mean you have little sympathy for Israelis who vote for the not very nice parties in Israeli elections ?
Would that mean its OK to bomb those Israelis because they must have asked for it ?

no, that you asked a stupid question that already had an explanation in the same post, about three lines down.

i have sympathy for those who did not vote for the people currently bringing armageddon down on the heads on Gazan's with their rocket attacks on israel.