Surprisingly bad units

[QuintusSertorius]

This is the opposite to the other thread (which is again mirrored on TWC). This is dedicated to expensive, rare and supposedly "elite" units which are actually a waste of mnai. Or even more regular ones that are supposed to be good, but simply aren't. Overpriced, underpowered, and generally not worthy of their salt.

They're not elite, but Roman equites are rubbish.



Not that I have an issue with it, Roman cavalry wasn't very good historically. But they're not fast, don't have good stamina, and aren't really very good in melee either. Which makes them no good at any battlefield role, really.

I'm starting to think Thessalian Heavy Cavalry aren't worth the money either, they tire ridiculously fast and they're no good if they get caught in a melee, even with all that armour.



I get more bang for buck from medium or even light cavalry. Even on the shock charge at which they supposedly excel.

While I've had a better time with them recently using them in their proper role, Thureophoroi are quite weak considering their stats.



As flankers they're alright, but they can't hold a line. I use them because they were used historically, rather than them being a unit of choice. Though they always seem to recover a lot of their injuries after a battle.

I've heard that the Pheraspidai/Peltastai Makedonikai are supposedly elite, but aren't.



Not experienced them myself to be able to say one way or the other.

What else is there that's poor value for money?

[konny]

I've heard that the Pheraspidai/Peltastai Makedonikai are supposedly elite, but aren't.



Not experienced them myself to be able to say one way or the other.

I don't what you use these guys for, but they are meant to storm towns, kill KH family members, protect the king's bodyguard from spearmen and the like nasty swordfighters tasks. They are not meant to hold the line against cavalry, due to missing spears, and not against phalanx due to their small numbers. They are best used in a pitched fight where they can't be outmanouvered or larger enemy units cannot use their superior numbers to flank them. That would be first of all cleaning the way from the breach to the town's center. Have ever you seen what they do regular Peltasts in a situation like that?



Here are some that did not impress me very much:



Both might have their use when closing in on the enemy - but that would require a battlefield free of any missle units, including javelins.



Useful with long pikes and phalanx ability; without it absolutly pathetic. Always hire classical Hoplites or real Thorakitai instead.



Way to weak for their price.



The best looking mounted bodyguard ingame, but no match for their Parthian or Saka counterparts.

[QuintusSertorius]

I don't what you use these guys for, but they are meant to storm towns, kill KH family members, protect the king's bodyguard from spearmen and the like nasty swordfighters tasks. They are not meant to hold the line against cavalry, due to missing spears, and not against phalanx due to their small numbers. They are best used in a pitched fight where they can't be outmanouvered or larger enemy units cannot use their superior numbers to flank them. That would be first of all cleaning the way from the breach to the town's center. Have ever you seen what they do regular Peltasts in a situation like that?

I've never used them, so I'm not sure what people were doing with them to say that.

I did see the AI use them to force a bridge crossing (all good so far), but then charge my front line of spearmen (dumb).

I agree with you on Drapanai - scary if they can get into melee, but hit them at range and they drop like flies.

[Tellos Athenaios]

With the exception of Ridanz (Curepos much better bang for the bucks, especially in a spear-heavy enviroment -- and both aren't elite anyways), I get to chuckle every time I see such thread. What it is you guys do to you troops I don't know; but there is something called playing to strengths.

Which should mean a combination of Thrakioi Doryphoroi, Komatai and Falxmen + some support units will make a cheap regular army, able to stand up to much heavier counterparts and do some damage to elite ones too. Shouldn't take such an army out to the steppes, though.

Naked spearmen: use them for their morale effects, and the occasional javelin hurled over the battle lines. Cheap man's Gaesatae -- but 'scares enemy' is a very valuable attribute where they come from.

Iphikratous Hoplitai: they just became more useful, just like the Sweboz Pikemen and others who had their Short-pikes removed. Exceptional anti cavalry material, very few units of their price tag are actually able to stand up against Hetairoi and the like. Guard mode is your friend, paying some notice to their formation depth when deploying them too.

Elephants can be very useful; it's a matter of timing mostly. A unit which is able to quickly decide a drawn-out fight on the flanks is always useful -- I've had units of the simpler elephant types crash into my own infantry at times (custom battles). For comparison: a unit of Triballoi was reduced within seconds to a mere 75 men on hughe, which is something not even heavy AP infantry can do.

[konny]

Which should mean a combination of Thrakioi Doryphoroi, Komatai and Falxmen + some support units will make a cheap regular army, able to stand up to much heavier counterparts and do some damage to elite ones too. Shouldn't take such an army out to the steppes, though.

Naked spearmen: use them for their morale effects, and the occasional javelin hurled over the battle lines. Cheap man's Gaesatae -- but 'scares enemy' is a very valuable attribute where they come from.

Both units will be killed very fast by archers before they can do any damage. The flaxmen even have no shields what might provide at least some protection against anything sharp flying through the air. And that doesn't even require Skythians or the like, Toxotai or Skutjanz and the like do this easy job very well. The moral effect of naked units isn't so dramatic on fresh units, what means that they must be kept alive long enough to make "shaken" units routing.

Iphikratous Hoplitai: they just became more useful, just like the Sweboz Pikemen and others who had their Short-pikes removed. Exceptional anti cavalry material, very few units of their price tag are actually able to stand up against Hetairoi and the like. Guard mode is your friend, paying some notice to their formation depth when deploying them too.

The difference between Iphikratians and Germanic pikemen is that the Sweboz variant is the only decently armoured unit for a reasonable price available to this faction. That makes them so important. The Greeks have Thureophoroi, Classical Hoplites and Thorakitai that can do anything the non-phalanx Iphikratians can do, and a lot more. That is, a unit of Iphikratians against Classicals will be killed in 9 out of 10 time, the same goes for Thorakitai Phalanx vs. Thorakitai Spearmen.

No, I can't see any reason recruiting them without phalanx mode. A weaker underhand spearmen formation is definitly not needed for the Greeks.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Both units will be killed very fast by archers before they can do any damage. The flaxmen even have no shields what might provide at least some protection against anything sharp flying through the air. And that doesn't even require Skythians or the like, Toxotai or Skutjanz and the like do this easy job very well. The moral effect of naked units isn't so dramatic on fresh units, what means that they must be kept alive long enough to make "shaken" units routing.

Which is what you use Doryphoroi for. Not overly expensive troops, big shields, javelins and reasonable morale for their cost. The Falxmen shoud enjoy the protection of the Doryphoroi, and when it gets to melee it should be the other way around.

[Tyrfingr]

The scythed chariots blows big time, but then again, that is no surprise...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

One has to use the units according to their supposed strengths. I do not understand QuintusSertorius.

- Hippeis Thessalikoi are one of the best cavalry units. They have a good charge and do not tire so rapidly as heavier cavalry does, and fares better in melee than Thraikioi Prodromoi (which I equally adore). Do not run your cavalry into spears, or keep them in any protracted melee. Any bugger with a knife can stab it into an unarmoured horse's belly, that's basically how it is.

- Peltastai Makedonikoi are awesome Sword-wielders. They are an assault-troop. Use your Hypaspitai to hold the line instead.

- Thureophoroi are an excellent medium infantry. They are some kind of jack-of-all-trades, but don't excel in any particular role.

Perhaps Quintus should stick to his Romans, after all they mostly use one type of infantry which additionally doesn't require any kind of sophisticated maneuvering on the field. What's exactly why the Romans where so successful.

[Che Roriniho]

These guys are quite possibly the worst unit I have ever used. When it says Phalanx in the name, I expect them to use a Phalanx, especially when it says they have 'longer spears', and use 'the latest technology'. Lost Arpi because of these.

[teh1337tim]

they once did have a phalanx back in earlier builds
what i recommend with these is to use them as medium spearmen/infantry since they WILL switch to swords on contact but actaully quite decent against calvalry, just make sure u got some hoplitai of some sort

[Tollheit]

they once did have a phalanx back in earlier builds

Which is why I restored this unit to its former glory version in my game...

[Che Roriniho]

Which is why I restored this unit to its former glory version in my game...

How did you do this?

[konny]

These guys are quite possibly the worst unit I have ever used. When it says Phalanx in the name, I expect them to use a Phalanx, especially when it says they have 'longer spears', and use 'the latest technology'. Lost Arpi because of these.

Historicaly they used longer spears than the Hoplites, what would be the short_pike. Unfortuantly this one happenes to be shorter than the light_spear the Hoplites use in EB. There are some ways to make them a bit more usefull:

- Give them the phalanx ability and the long_pike and make them a unit like the Makedonian phalanx. That wouldn't be historical correct because the Maks actually used a spear even longer than that of the Iphikratians.

- Give them the same stats as Peltasts in armour and defense (in fact they are Peltasts armed with spears instead of javelins), keep the upkeep to that of the Hoplites but raise the number of men per unit Iphikratians to 200 instead of 160 to represent them being better available than classical Hoplites (Iphikratians would be mercenaries, while Hoplites would be middle-class militia). A "modern" Greek army would then be lots of Iphikratians with some Peltasts, no Hoplites.

[Dumbass]

I find that Bruttian Infantry tend to die pretty quickly in battles, much quicker than hastati or hastati Samnitici. They could come under the catagory of surprisingly bad.

Also Gaeroas are terrible.

[Rodrico Stak]

I find that Bruttian Infantry tend to die pretty quickly in battles, much quicker than hastati or hastati Samnitici. They could come under the catagory of surprisingly bad.

I don't agree with that. I used Bruttian Infantry extensively to fight rebels as the Romani (built a level 4 government in Taras), and they did more damage than the Hoplitai who were part of the same army.

[Swordmaster]

Thureophoroi will break under pressure, that's a given. So when you make sure they don't come under pressure, they will do the job. Problem is that this makes them rather unreliable and in need of constant supervision on the battlefield.

The main prize, however, in this thread will probably go to...



...any and all elephants. Sure, they make a big impression, but losing them to a band of skirmishers usually doesn't, turning your treasury into a laughing stock. Only recruit them when you swim in money, and on the battlefield, keep them far away from your own troops, in case they run amok.

[konny]

....or artillery. I have never bothered to buy them in EB (did so once in BI) but the AI has them from time to time. It cannot keep up with the army if any kind of manouvering is required and needs constant protection from cavalry because even Hippakontistai will kill it. On the few occasions it got some shots away, the result was not as damaging as if my units had been under fire of experinced slingers.

[Dutchhoplite]

They're not elite, but Roman equites are rubbish.



Not that I have an issue with it, Roman cavalry wasn't very good historically. But they're not fast, don't have good stamina, and aren't really very good in melee either. Which makes them no good at any battlefield role, really.

So true :(

I only use these units for hunting skirmishers and running down defeated troops...

[QuintusSertorius]

I find that a very odd statement, the only time I can ever remember my Camillan Hastati or Principes routing is after the general has been killed, and even then they last quite a while. My Camillan Hastati in particular get whittled down fairly quickly but I have never had a problem with their morale. Then again I never allow my units to become isolated, perhaps if they were up against better opposition on their own they might rout quicker.

Indeed, I was a little surprised at the statement. Properly supported in the checkerboard formation, Camillian troops very rarely rout, as long as the general is still alive. They may not have the morale of Polybian troops, but they're not flaky by any means.

I too often had big losses amongst my hastati, but they'd always hold their ground.

They're not elite, but Roman equites are rubbish.

So true :(

I only use these units for hunting skirmishers and running down defeated troops...

I actually never bother recruiting them, personally, I think the bodyguard around a younger FM is a better representation of equites. It's also a smaller unit, generally, which again I think is a better reflection than the recruitable one.

[Fondor_Yards]

I forgot about these guys before, the Iberi Curisi. They are classed as medium cavalry, but are on the low end of the stats to be medium cavalry, meaning most other medium cavalry and up will be able to beat them in a fight. So if they are going to attack anyone, need it to either be light cav/inf or outnumber the enemy. Almost all other light/medium cavalry is much more useful, either having missiles so they can harass the enemy flanks and break up their formation before chasing routers, or having lances so they can charge the enemy to rout them. The ones that don't, like the Curisi normally have higher stats so they can kill the lancers and missile guys, but have better stats. For the famous elite Iberian cavalry, they are sub-par at best.

[Andronikos]

Somebody here mentioned Brihentin. They are not exceptional, but I have very good experience with them. As the Roman cavalry is weak, Brihentin works wonders on them. I used them as Roman FM killers, when fighting on swords in cav vs. cav fights Romans fall like sheep (most of my enemies as a Celtic player were Roman armies). And when charging, Brihentin could rout enemy forces and are good against gaesatae. In the no-cataphract west, they are the best cav. aviable (have not tried German elites yet).

[Strategos Alexandros]

I forgot about these guys before, the Iberi Curisi. They are classed as medium cavalry, but are on the low end of the stats to be medium cavalry, meaning most other medium cavalry and up will be able to beat them in a fight. So if they are going to attack anyone, need it to either be light cav/inf or outnumber the enemy. Almost all other light/medium cavalry is much more useful, either having missiles so they can harass the enemy flanks and break up their formation before chasing routers, or having lances so they can charge the enemy to rout them. The ones that don't, like the Curisi normally have higher stats so they can kill the lancers and missile guys, but have better stats. For the famous elite Iberian cavalry, they are sub-par at best.

Curisi are actually quite a good light cavalry force for harrassing infantry and countering enemy light troops and skirmisher cavalry.

[Sdragon]

Lucanian Infantry
They have small shields and crappy armour so they die in droves. Only have 160 men per unit. Their unit description describes them as a peltest unit but they only carry 2 javelins. Every unit in Italy walks all over these guys.

[Fondor_Yards]

Curisi are actually quite a good light cavalry force for harrassing infantry and countering enemy light troops and skirmisher cavalry.

Exactly, as medium cavalry they fail, you might as well be using Iberi Equites Caetrati for that since they are cheaper and have javelins too.

[Disciple of Tacitus]

Jumping into the Iberian Curisi conversation - IF I were to peg one Iberian/Lusotannan unit as suprisingly weak for what it is, it would be these guys. They simply don't handle combat AFTER the charge well. For your money, Iberi Equites Caetrati are a better bet. The Iberian Curisi do - however - excel at countering enemy cav skirmishers.
I suppose the question always is - not which unit is bad per se - but have you (as General) figured out HOW to use that unit to the best of it's ability and - more pointedly - does it fit into your overall army.

[strategos roma]

dahae skirmisher calvary i think is pretty awful. limited ammo and horrible at melee. also median medium calvary. you'll be far better off using prodomoi and indo-iranians instead. also don't like rhodians slingers cause thy're hard to replace and expensive. oh, and theurophoi become useless once the game goes on for sometime. they can't really hold a line and isn't too good at flanking, which should be their speciality. i found out that a unit of levy hoplites can actually break them in battle, which shouldn't have happened. also chariots are destructive but easy to kill. learny that the hard way against parthia.

[QuintusSertorius]

In fairness to Thureophoroi, they can hold a flank. Note, not the centre of the line, but the flank.

[Che Roriniho]

I cannot disagree strongly enough against the inclusion of Thessalian Heavy Cav. They are just simply immense. I've only fought about 10 battles with them, and already they have 6 experience. AP with moth primary andd secondary, fast like a bullet, and have a truly immense charge.

Just excellent.

[QuintusSertorius]

I cannot disagree strongly enough against the inclusion of Thessalian Heavy Cav. They are just simply immense. I've only fought about 10 battles with them, and already they have 6 experience. AP with moth primary andd secondary, fast like a bullet, and have a truly immense charge.

Just excellent.

I've found Thrakian Prodromoi are much better. Don't tire after two charges. Same AP primary and secondary. Only difference is in armour, which doesn't really matter if you're not getting caught in melee.

[Fondor_Yards]

I've found Thrakian Prodromoi are much better. Don't tire after two charges. Same AP primary and secondary. Only difference is in armour, which doesn't really matter if you're not getting caught in melee.

Thrakian Prodromoi's secondary sword isn't ap, just a good old regular one.

also don't like rhodians slingers cause thy're hard to replace and expensive.

What? Rhodes is basically THE center of the map, it's good which ever way you start invading. And they have the highest range of ANY missile unit at 224. The only thing with more range is artillery. Combine that with 4 ap attack and they destroy everything, they are more then worth the cost.