Liberating the Motherland and kicked out? A Kardhastim Questions...

[Cute Wolf]

In EB Kardhastim can built type 1 Gov in Tsidon (their motherland of course...) but why when I play as kardhastim (already conquered all iberians and kick Lusotans off), I try to send 1 stack of full of high end warriors in ships directly to Tsidon, conquering the city from the Ptolemies, build the first type goverment here, and ended kicked out of this city when the developing is still in process (rebelled to Eleutheroi!!!)... Just curious, how to build type 1 gov, safely in Tsidon?

I'll bet the Carthies will be glad to meet the Phoenicians, and treat their relatives kindly, but why the phoenicians kick their butt out of their ancestral cities? Tax = normal, and I have half stack as garrison when they riotted and kick out my armies... (I didn't enslave them... who will enslave their own relatives?)

[Skullheadhq]

guess it isn't in teh script! And so...Would you be happy if your uncle you never knew conquers your house and start asking tax?

[satalexton]

THATS why...you DIDN'T enslave them..thats why...

[Dayve]

Well, the further a city is away from your capital, the less likely they are to be happy as a part of your empire.

Could be a spy in the city causing unrest too. Move your capital a little bit closer to the city, just temporarily until you get a government set up, then move it back. Also, keep a spy in the city. It helps to protect against mischief.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Use a type IV and appoint a local puppet instead. Then you can act as the "liberator" of Phoenicia.

[MerlinusCDXX]

Use the "expel" option. You can RP that as you are sending the Greeks, Syrians, Persians and Galatians packing. It's like a Phoenicia for Phoenicians movement . Ancient rulers practiced mass deportation pretty regularly when conquering areas of differing ethnicity or a high percentage of troublemakers among the populace. Expelling removes a good # of people, and doesn't give you bad traits (at least I've never gotten them, all I've gotten was cool '_____ slave' ancillaries"

[theoldbelgian]

and don't forget the looting and wealthy traits

[Ludens]

You say you are liberating them, but they may think it's just a change of regime. After all, instead of taking orders of Greeks, they now have to take orders from some the Colonials. There probably is a reason they sent that lot of Africa all those years ago.

[Maion Maroneios]

You say you are liberating them, but they may think it's just a change of regime. After all, instead of taking orders of Greeks, they now have to take orders from some the Colonials. There probably is a reason they sent that lot of Africa all those years ago.

Exactly. Don't forget the region had a heavy Hellenic influence at that time, plus the Carthaginians had a different mind than the Phoenicians in their homeland.

Maion

[Cute Wolf]

Well, I finally reconquers my ancestral home and expel all the greeks out

@Maion
Well, after some thinking, I think that that's why they are in africa... so is it true? carthage starts as Phoenician exile/prison colony as Australia was once British's prison island?

[Watchman]

AFAIK the Carthies were on pretty good terms with their mother city though. (A bunch of Carth pilgrims were stuck inside when Alexander laid siege to the place, for example.) Wasn't apparently too unusual for the Phoenician cities and their outliers.

'Course, that doesn't mean either would have been very happy about it if the other party shipped in an army and started throwing its weight around...

[theoldbelgian]

mmh no I don't think so
Alexandros decided to assault tyre rather then besieging it because tyre had sent for help to Carthage
so there has to be some kind of friendly relations between the city's

[Gatalos de Sauromatae]

Yeah!
At the time of Alexandros the relation may be friendly but in the EB time frame thing would change.
IMHO you must remember that ppl in Carthage have the mind of empire by force rather than empire by commenrce of their homeland.This is right?

[team_kramnik]

I would agree Carthage was a very unusual phoenician city. There is the saying the first time a punic city raised an army was when greeks of Sicily invaded the phoenician part of the island and Carthage came to the rescue. Phoenician's were more used to just pay tribute than fight bloody landwars. Of course there is also the theory they hired the Sea-People to wipe out the Hittites.
IIRC Tyre was sacked by Alexander because they refused to allow him to sacrifice in their temple. So they seemed to expect to be mostly left alone from their rulers. And Cute Wolf, am I right everything around Sidon is in the hands of hostile hellenic powers? Now that's bad for buisness. No wonder they hate you. You probably created a major economical crisis in the Levant.
Carthage wasn't loved that much by the western cities either. During the Truceless War Carthage rescued Utica and Hippacritae from a siege of revolting ex-soldiers just to have these cities to also start a revolt. It seems to me many Phoenician cities in the western med viewed that empire as purely Carthage's and wanted nothing to do with it.


Anyway in the ancient world a revolt or two doesn't mean much. No need to burn the place down. Unless your playing Romani of course.

Use the "expel" option. You can RP that as you are sending the Greeks, Syrians, Persians and Galatians packing. It's like a Phoenicia for Phoenicians movement . Ancient rulers practiced mass deportation pretty regularly when conquering areas of differing ethnicity or a high percentage of troublemakers among the populace. Expelling removes a good # of people, and doesn't give you bad traits (at least I've never gotten them, all I've gotten was cool '_____ slave' ancillaries"

Edit: I'm a bit surprised by that statement. Of course the Romans used any excuse to fill their slave market. But I don't think they moved troublesome populations somewhere else. And the Diadochi brought in Hellene settlers in the east and the Sweboz Germanic ones to Gaul. But here the objectiv was to bring in loyal soldiers although of course some nativs might have been forced leave the province as they lost their property.
I can't think of single example which would correspond to EB's 2nd option. Of course I don't object to having that option. If the Macedoniens would have resettled the population of Athens to Dardania or Carhage send the people of Utiqua to Numida their empires might have lasted longer. But that wouldn't have been a expected thing to do (especially from Carthage). Atleast as far as I know.


Edit2: If you want to able to raise some military there backup export_descr_buildings.txt in \Rome - Total War\EB\Data. Then open it it in Notepad or something similar. Search for Barracks_L and add the following lines to the capabilities of the barracks.

muster_field & militia_barracks:

recruit "carthaginian infantry mishteret izrahim feenikim" 0 requires factions { egypt, } and hidden_resource EA and hidden_resource C and hidden_resource n1 and hidden_resource n2 and hidden_resource n4 and hidden_resource n8

city_barracks & army_barracks:

recruit "carthaginian infantry mishteret izrahim feenikim" 0 requires factions { egypt, } and hidden_resource EA and hidden_resource C and hidden_resource n1 and hidden_resource n2 and hidden_resource n4 and hidden_resource n8
recruit "carthaginian cavalry ezrahim parashim feeniki" 0 requires factions { egypt, } and hidden_resource EA and hidden_resource C and hidden_resource n1 and hidden_resource n2 and hidden_resource n4 and hidden_resource n8

royal_barracks:
recruit "carthaginian infantry dorkim kdoshim" 0 requires factions { egypt, } and hidden_resource EA and hidden_resource C and hidden_resource n1 and hidden_resource n2 and hidden_resource n4 and hidden_resource n8
recruit "carthaginian cavalry haabbirim haqdosim abbirim" 0 requires factions { egypt, } and hidden_resource EA and hidden_resource C and hidden_resource n1 and hidden_resource n2 and hidden_resource n4 and hidden_resource n8
recruit "carthaginian infantry mishteret izrahim feenikim" 0 requires factions { egypt, } and hidden_resource EA and hidden_resource C and hidden_resource n1 and hidden_resource n2 and hidden_resource n4 and hidden_resource n8
recruit "carthaginian cavalry ezrahim parashim feeniki" 0 requires factions { egypt, } and hidden_resource EA and hidden_resource C and hidden_resource n1 and hidden_resource n2 and hidden_resource n4 and hidden_resource n8

[MerlinusCDXX]

team_kramnik,
my statement about the use of mass deportation among ancient rulers applies more to older Eastern cultures than it does to Greeks/Makedones. IIRC, the Hellenistic, Celtic, and Germanic peoples were rather the exception to that rule. The Babylonians practiced it (the exile of the Jews to Babylon), I think the Assyrians and Egyptians also used this option. AFAIK It wasn't really standard practice until after a major rebellion occurred or *non-standard military resistance (guerilla warfare and the like) was particularly stiff.

* having trouble finding the right words for this concept

[bovi]

Partisan may be what you were looking for.

[MerlinusCDXX]

Yes, Bovi, that's it, thanks (I think I posted that after many beers ).

[Tudhaliya]

... Phoenician's were more used to just pay tribute than fight bloody landwars. Of course there is also the theory they hired the Sea-People to wipe out the Hittites...

Heh, if that's true, the Phoenicians and the rest of the Near East got a lot more than they bargained for. The Sea People ate everyone's lunch, and the Levant was one of the worst ravaged areas.

As for mass deportation, I know the Hittites were huge fans of it. Every time they conquered a place they'd take deportees and send them across the empire. One time they sent a whole bunch from Syria to their capital Hattusa and a plague broke out. Almost everyone was wiped out, and then had to import Luwians from the western provinces. The theory is that almost no one spoke Hittite on the streets of Hattusa by 1300 BC.

Of course the Romans and later the Byzantines loved shipping people around too, but I think they mostly shipped allied soldiers to garrison the borders. I don't know if they practiced wholesale civilian, as opposed to military, deportation and resettling.

[Subotan]

The Incas did that too. (Even though that's hardly relevant for our mod)