Great Heros! Geh!

PC Mode

Kralizec 22:55 28/12/08

Come to think of it, I believe the Portugese once elected Salazar (a quasi-fascist dictator) as their greatest countryman. The Dutch picked Pim Fortuyn, not a dictator but a populist politician akin to Berlusconi who was murdered before "his" election. And looking through the web, I found out that in the UK princess Diana was rated at #3, well ahead of Shakespeare, Fleming and generally everyone else who did matter.

Sigh...

CountArach 23:12 28/12/08

I'm not surprised by this. Stalin put in place many great social welfare programs and healthcare - things that would later serve as the basis for the modern Welfare State. These, unsurprisingly, gave him imense popularity amongst the working class - many of whom form teh new middle class of Russia. These people are now the ones voting in this poll.

Kralizec 23:19 28/12/08

Countarach, i'm not sure if you meant to offer an explanation or if you meant to raise another plus for the guy- if it's the latter, do a quick google search for "Ukrainian famine" and reconsider.

Samurai Waki 00:55 29/12/08

I'm sure one of Romania's greatest heroes was probably Vlad the Impaler. Savage, bloodthirsty man... but also a great tactician, and Wallachia prospered under his rule.

CountArach 03:38 29/12/08

Originally Posted by Fenring:
Countarach, i'm not sure if you meant to offer an explanation or if you meant to raise another plus for the guy- if it's the latter, do a quick google search for "Ukrainian famine" and reconsider.

A little of both. I personally don't like Stalin for the reasons stated in this thread, but I do think that some of his social welfare programs were really well-intended and good.

rory_20_uk 10:17 29/12/08

Originally Posted by CountArach:
A little of both. I personally don't like Stalin for the reasons stated in this thread, but I do think that some of his social welfare programs were really well-intended and good.

Mainly for the many reasons mentioned in this thread, and probably thousands of others I can not imagine that Stalin did anything that was for the good of anyone but himself.

rory_20_uk 23:16 28/12/08

Although WW2 did help, Stalin was a veteran at killing his own peoples years before it started. And during the war, his acts of burning all crops whilst from the most dispassionate standpoint did stop his enemies eat, also ensured countrymen also starved.

His purges before the wars also ensured that all free thinking and able officers had been killed, ensuring that the army was in almost its worst possible shape for years when facing the onslaught.

His inept handling in 1941 almost lost the Soviets' the war as well as loosing masses of troops who then could not be fed as all the food was burnt.

Ironically he disinterred the concept of "Mother Russia" to help save the Soviet - a concept that few would fight for.

So, a genocidal Georgian is one of the best Russians...

Furunculus 10:04 29/12/08

Originally Posted by Fenring:
And looking through the web, I found out that in the UK princess Diana was rated at #3, well ahead of Shakespeare, Fleming and generally everyone else who did matter.

Sigh...

just goes to show quite how stupid the voting public are.

Banquo's Ghost 13:45 29/12/08

Originally Posted by Furunculus:
just goes to show quite how stupid the voting public are.

Not stupid - uneducated.

It suits governments of modern democracies to minimise the education of their citizens whilst manipulating the information to which they do have access. Thus, government by sound bite and celebrity culture becomes ever more possible, and a populace untrained in debate and thought easily confused to the point of apathy.

Putin's nurturing of the myth of Stalin is merely a few steps along the road from what already occurs in much of the West. A dumb, blonde clothes horse is as effective a "hero" for the consumerist UK as the hard, ruthless, end-justifies-the-means "hero" is for the KGB-led Russia.

Education is perhaps the most important right of all, after the right to life. Yet how far down government's budget priorities - far below war, bankers, and "security" - do we see it every year?

Ironically, Soviet Russia had a world-leading education system, the recipients of which were repressed from exploiting. Now the citizenry has some kind of democracy, the state education system has been left to rot into a pitiful condition.

Perhaps this is the natural end-state of liberal democracy. By definition, government seeks to govern, and rarely recognises the concept of limits to its power.

Fisherking 14:10 29/12/08

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost:
Not stupid - uneducated.

It suits governments of modern democracies to minimise the education of their citizens whilst manipulating the information they to which they do have access. Thus, government by sound bite and celebrity culture becomes ever more possible, and a populace untrained in debate and thought easily confused to the point of apathy.

Putin's nurturing of the myth of Stalin is merely a few steps along the road from what already occurs in much of the West. A dumb, blonde clothes horse is as effective a "hero" for the consumerist UK as the hard, ruthless, end-justifies-the-means "hero" is for the KGB-led Russia.

Education is perhaps the most important right of all, after the right to life. Yet how far down government's budget priorities - far below war, bankers, and "security" - do we see it every year?

Ironically, Soviet Russia had a world-leading education system, the recipients of which were repressed from exploiting. Now the citizenry has some kind of democracy, the state education system has been left to rot into a pitiful condition.

Perhaps this is the natural end-state of liberal democracy. By definition, government seeks to govern, and rarely recognises the concept of limits to its power.

Oh! That was so, so good and TRUE!!!

HoreTore 14:40 29/12/08

Russian nationalists, as nationalists everywhere, love their strongman. As nationalism is big in russia nowadays, it's hardly surprising that a strongman(Stalin) is on such a list.

Stalin made Russia great on the international scene, fought back an invasion and won a war. Of course a nationalist is going to love that.

This ties in nicely with their recent love for the last tzar, as much a murdering scumbag as any other monarch/despot, which they've now turned into a saint, and made his very justified execution a "war-crime"...

It would surprise me if they don't end up as yet another dictatorship soon. They've done monarchy and communism, I wonder what's next? Religious fascism, perhaps?

CrossLOPER 16:15 29/12/08

Originally Posted by HoreTore:
It would surprise me if they don't end up as yet another dictatorship soon. They've done monarchy and communism, I wonder what's next? Religious fascism, perhaps?

We're thinking about electing actual rats.

Also, as much as I agree with most of the people here, the article "sounds" very paranoid. "Stalin's profile on the poll's website does not shy away from his crimes" would be much more fitting if a picture like this had been used:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

InsaneApache 16:26 29/12/08

Another nail hit squarely on it's head. Great post. I'm utterly appalled at the lack of education the young 'uns get these days. In fact it's bordering on criminal. The best bit is that the government is touting the rise in GCSE results as a vindication of it's education policies, when in fact what in reality is happening is that the pupils are acheiving even more worthless pieces of paper.

When 20-25% of school leavers are functionally illiterate and innumerate it should be a badge of shame, not celebration.

Anyway, not wanting to hi-jack the thread, I'll take JAGs advice and shut up.

Banquo's Ghost 16:42 29/12/08

Originally Posted by InsaneApache:
When 20-25% of school leavers are functionally illiterate ...

Including myself, it appears.

Watchman 03:25 30/12/08

Bet you most of those who voted for Uncle Joe on account of "beating back the Germans" conveniently ignored the little detail his full-spectrum bungling in matters military and foreign political was the chief reason the Panzers ever got past Poland in the first place.

Seriously, the somnambulatory way the purge-lobotomized and comissar-saddled Red Army went about its business around the turn of the decade would be comical had it not gotten so much people (Soviet soldiers mostly) killed for naught...

Ironside 12:52 30/12/08

Originally Posted by Watchman:
Bet you most of those who voted for Uncle Joe on account of "beating back the Germans" conveniently ignored the little detail his full-spectrum bungling in matters military and foreign political was the chief reason the Panzers ever got past Poland in the first place.

Seriously, the somnambulatory way the purge-lobotomized and comissar-saddled Red Army went about its business around the turn of the decade would be comical had it not gotten so much people (Soviet soldiers mostly) killed for naught...

Thankfully, with what appears to become the new history book at Russian schools (it's in the draft sended to the teachers), they don't need to longer ignore that little detail. To ignore things, you actually need to heard about them first...

HoreTore 19:49 30/12/08

That's been the russian way of fighting for centuries, hasn't it? Throw peasant hordes at the enemy until they're swamped...

Kralizec 17:29 29/12/08

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost:
Not stupid - uneducated.

It suits governments of modern democracies to minimise the education of their citizens whilst manipulating the information to which they do have access. Thus, government by sound bite and celebrity culture becomes ever more possible, and a populace untrained in debate and thought easily confused to the point of apathy.

Putin's nurturing of the myth of Stalin is merely a few steps along the road from what already occurs in much of the West. A dumb, blonde clothes horse is as effective a "hero" for the consumerist UK as the hard, ruthless, end-justifies-the-means "hero" is for the KGB-led Russia.

Education is perhaps the most important right of all, after the right to life. Yet how far down government's budget priorities - far below war, bankers, and "security" - do we see it every year?

Ironically, Soviet Russia had a world-leading education system, the recipients of which were repressed from exploiting. Now the citizenry has some kind of democracy, the state education system has been left to rot into a pitiful condition.

Perhaps this is the natural end-state of liberal democracy. By definition, government seeks to govern, and rarely recognises the concept of limits to its power.

As an inhabitant of a modern democracy who has major gripes with the education system, I don't think that the burden of fault falls entirely on the government, much less that it's a conscious effort to turn the electorate into sheep.
When I was in high school I resented the fact that I had to learn things wich were of absolutely no relevance to the occupation I intended to fulfill later - yet now I regret that I forgot a lot of them. Personally I always liked history and even in my time the timeframes and material covered were poorly selected, but I imagine that a lot of people don't acknowledge historical knowledge as being useful either.
Most politicians aren't so much out to screw people, but they screw things up when nobody's paying attention to what they're doing.

(I vaguely remember an editorial wich lambasted Tony Blair for practically deifying princess Diana for his own political purposes, if so that's seperate)

Originally Posted by Vladimir:
Really; who else do these people have to choose from? Stop looking for the best person and realize the least worst wins.

They could have picked Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn or Gorbachov, two men wich I both admire but wich obviously stand no chance. They also could have picked Yuri Gagarin or even marshall Chukov, who unlike Stalin actually was instrumental in defeating the nazis. Lack of choice is not the problem.

Banquo's Ghost 17:49 29/12/08

Originally Posted by Fenring:
As an inhabitant of a modern democracy who has major gripes with the education system, I don't think that the burden of fault falls entirely on the government, much less that it's a conscious effort to turn the electorate into sheep.
When I was in high school I resented the fact that I had to learn things wich were of absolutely no relevance to the occupation I intended to fulfill later - yet now I regret that I forgot a lot of them. Personally I always liked history and even in my time the timeframes and material covered were poorly selected, but I imagine that a lot of people don't acknowledge historical knowledge as being useful either.

Obviously, personal dedication has much to do with it, but the education system and the culture wherein education is valued and young people made aware of that value - by coercion if necessary - is laid at government's door - even if privately delivered. In countries where education is hard to find, and clearly leads to a better life and more personal choices, incredible efforts are made to obtain it, and oddly, the children so favoured work very, very hard to get the best from their chance.

Originally Posted by Fenring:
Most politicians aren't so much out to screw people, but they screw things up when nobody's paying attention to what they're doing.

I admire your optimism. In my experience, they are very, very much out to screw people and spend inordinate amounts of time planning how to do it more effectively. I find it hard to believe the kind of outcomes one sees are by happy coincidence born of genial incompetence.

But I recognise that old age brings much ~~experience~~ cynicism.

Sarmatian 18:01 29/12/08

Alexander Nevsky voted the greatest - click.

It seems that whether it's a communist or medieval prince doesn't matter much to Russians - as long as he's beating the Germans

Ironside 20:13 29/12/08

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost:
Obviously, personal dedication has much to do with it, but the education system and the culture wherein education is valued and young people made aware of that value - by coercion if necessary - is laid at government's door - even if privately delivered. In countries where education is hard to find, and clearly leads to a better life and more personal choices, incredible efforts are made to obtain it, and oddly, the children so favoured work very, very hard to get the best from their chance.

Then again, is that group any different from the group that gets through the current system fine? Ignoring the rich lane of course.

In Russia's case, the more worrysome part is the current top led "more patriotic education", coupled with a certain discurage to question that infomation. That is a more recent problem though, although older things, like the Great Patriotic War (1941-1945) might have given Stalin a bit rose tinted glasses.

Kralizec 23:54 29/12/08

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost:
I admire your optimism. In my experience, they are very, very much out to screw people and spend inordinate amounts of time planning how to do it more effectively. I find it hard to believe the kind of outcomes one sees are by happy coincidence born of genial incompetence.

But I recognise that old age brings much ~~experience~~ cynicism.

Rigging the education system so that future voters would be easier to mold would only yield results after 12 years, probably more. While many (or most, if you prefer) politicians are corrupt in the sense that they look after themselves rather well, I doubt that they plan that far ahead to ensure success for their party after- I'm somehow reminded of masonic conspiracy theories.

Using myself as an example wasn't meant to prove that most kids don't like school- they're not able to vote, in any case. What I meant to say was that even many adults couldn't care less that school curriculums are reduced to bare minimum of "knowledge that really matters"
Apache hinted at another factor: the performance of individual schools, as well as the education system as a whole are often measured by the percentage of pupils who actually receive a diploma upon leaving. It's known that setting quotas from up high in practice causes the people further down to hollow out the criteria. Political short-sightedness and the instinct of self-preservation below causes this, not political masterminding.

Also, while the Soviet Union had a very accessible education system and thus good literacy rates I'd be careful about praising it. Unlike "our" systems it was definitely regarded as a tool of indoctrination. Physics and chemistry didn't suffer partly because it wasn't likely to collide with the party's ideology and because they were vital for the military, but many other areas did.

CrossLOPER 00:10 30/12/08

Originally Posted by Fenring:
Also, while the Soviet Union had a very accessible education system and thus good literacy rates I'd be careful about praising it. Unlike "our" systems it was definitely regarded as a tool of indoctrination. Physics and chemistry didn't suffer partly because it wasn't likely to collide with the party's ideology and because they were vital for the military, but many other areas did.

General history classes tend to be platforms used to show how awesome the country you're in is. That is, in terms of which regime currently runs your country.

Fisherking 10:16 30/12/08

Originally Posted by Fenring:
Rigging the education system so that future voters would be easier to mold would only yield results after 12 years, probably more. While many (or most, if you prefer) politicians are corrupt in the sense that they look after themselves rather well, I doubt that they plan that far ahead to ensure success for their party after- I'm somehow reminded of masonic conspiracy theories.

Using myself as an example wasn't meant to prove that most kids don't like school- they're not able to vote, in any case. What I meant to say was that even many adults couldn't care less that school curriculums are reduced to bare minimum of "knowledge that really matters"
Apache hinted at another factor: the performance of individual schools, as well as the education system as a whole are often measured by the percentage of pupils who actually receive a diploma upon leaving. It's known that setting quotas from up high in practice causes the people further down to hollow out the criteria. Political short-sightedness and the instinct of self-preservation below causes this, not political masterminding.

Also, while the Soviet Union had a very accessible education system and thus good literacy rates I'd be careful about praising it. Unlike "our" systems it was definitely regarded as a tool of indoctrination. Physics and chemistry didn't suffer partly because it wasn't likely to collide with the party's ideology and because they were vital for the military, but many other areas did.

That is usually done at a lower level, where textbooks with a political agenda are adopted. Teachers also tend to express their political views in class rooms.

Government programs can also be launched for cynical reasons, targeting particular groups. In other words legislative bodies do take the long view.

CountArach 23:13 29/12/08

Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost:
Not stupid - uneducated.

It suits governments of modern democracies to minimise the education of their citizens whilst manipulating the information to which they do have access. Thus, government by sound bite and celebrity culture becomes ever more possible, and a populace untrained in debate and thought easily confused to the point of apathy.

Putin's nurturing of the myth of Stalin is merely a few steps along the road from what already occurs in much of the West. A dumb, blonde clothes horse is as effective a "hero" for the consumerist UK as the hard, ruthless, end-justifies-the-means "hero" is for the KGB-led Russia.

Education is perhaps the most important right of all, after the right to life. Yet how far down government's budget priorities - far below war, bankers, and "security" - do we see it every year?

Ironically, Soviet Russia had a world-leading education system, the recipients of which were repressed from exploiting. Now the citizenry has some kind of democracy, the state education system has been left to rot into a pitiful condition.

Perhaps this is the natural end-state of liberal democracy. By definition, government seeks to govern, and rarely recognises the concept of limits to its power.

Woah... I've never seen my own reasons for being jaded by the current Democratic system put so succinctly. Bravo sir

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