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Thread: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

  1. #1
    The Rhetorician Member Skullheadhq's Avatar
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    Default Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    How do you say that in Greek? Kingdom of Massilia? Basileion Massalias?
    Last edited by Skullheadhq; 12-28-2008 at 17:58.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    I'm more wondering on, what the historica boundaries of Massilia was, for a new Massalia campaign. My good and trusty GOOGLE has failed me to provide anything of value.

    Was it ever anything more than a Colony/City-State?

    (Sorry for hijacking the thread :D )

  3. #3
    The Rhetorician Member Skullheadhq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    nope
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    Quote Originally Posted by tapanojum View Post
    I'm more wondering on, what the historica boundaries of Massilia was, for a new Massalia campaign. My good and trusty GOOGLE has failed me to provide anything of value.

    Was it ever anything more than a Colony/City-State?

    (Sorry for hijacking the thread :D )
    Actually, it was. It had managed a tidy little state in the south of France and Spain. Unfortunately all we know of it is from other peoples' accounts. Therefore its own part seems to get diminished a bit.

    What I read of it, seems to suggest that it was a much bigger force than people seem to think. Much like an iceberg, much smaller on the surface, and bigger beneath.

    Its expansion was all along the southern coast of France,
    http://www.ncl.ac.uk/shefton-museum/greeks/france.html
    and it also founded Kallipolis, which was under its control at EB's start, now known as Barcelona.
    Emporion was another city in spain, and the last one was called Hemeroskopeion, or "Divining place" as "Hemeroskopoi" were a type of oracles.

    In Greek it would be...
    Μασσαλία (Massalia).

    As it would have a republican system of government, I would hesitate to call it a Kingdom. Maybe a "Republic of Massalia" would fit it.

    So far as I know, there was never a king of Massalia but if that is what you wish call them "Basileion Massalias" and you would be correct.


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  5. #5
    Member Member KozaK13's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    http://http://www.worldhistorymaps.i...-Hem_300bc.jpg

    The 1 in the south of france is Massilia...it has a mch larger area than the greek cities in the pelponese and this is close to the campaign start.

    http://http://www.worldhistorymaps.i...-Hem_200bc.jpg then again in 200 bc it is still decently sized..

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  6. #6

    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    Quote Originally Posted by KozaK13 View Post
    http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/ima...-Hem_300bc.jpg

    The 1 in the south of france is Massilia...it has a mch larger area than the greek cities in the pelponese and this is close to the campaign start.

    http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/ima...-Hem_200bc.jpg then again in 200 bc it is still decently sized..
    fixed.
    Last edited by keravnos; 12-29-2008 at 05:52.


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  7. #7
    The Rhetorician Member Skullheadhq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    Quote Originally Posted by keravnos View Post
    Actually, it was. It had managed a tidy little state in the south of France and Spain. Unfortunately all we know of it is from other peoples' accounts. Therefore its own part seems to get diminished a bit.

    What I read of it, seems to suggest that it was a much bigger force than people seem to think. Much like an iceberg, much smaller on the surface, and bigger beneath.

    Its expansion was all along the southern coast of France,
    http://www.ncl.ac.uk/shefton-museum/greeks/france.html
    and it also founded Kallipolis, which was under its control at EB's start, now known as Barcelona.
    Emporion was another city in spain, and the last one was called Hemeroskopeion, or "Divining place" as "Hemeroskopoi" were a type of oracles.

    In Greek it would be...
    Μασσαλία (Massalia).

    As it would have a republican system of government, I would hesitate to call it a Kingdom. Maybe a "Republic of Massalia" would fit it.

    So far as I know, there was never a king of Massalia but if that is what you wish call them "Basileion Massalias" and you would be correct.
    So it would be Basileion Massalias, But what's Republic in greek?
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    Republic=Demokratia in greek, but if a state was to proclaim that it was a republic it wouldn't write it as "Republic of Massalia" but as its people or "Republic of Massaliotai". No one would use "Republic" as such in the ancient world as its literall meaning was "rule of the Demos(Demos being the free men of a city)".

    As such the correct way for it to be written would be "Demos Massalioton" or plain "Massaliotai"

    The ancient way to express was the following: People living in a state rather than state.

    In the current scheme of things, we often speak of the "Athens" VS "Sparta" when the ancients would speak about it as "Athenians" VS "Spartans".

    The examples that I have seen, as the following coin is clear...


    it reads "Massalieton" which is genitive for "Massalians". It is Ionian greek from 150 BCE, which is indicative of how they called themselves as a people.... "Massaliatai". The attic greek (which became standard) version of that would be "Massaliotai".

    So, what you are looking for would be either "Massaliatai/Massaliotai". Both are correct. If you have to use "repubic of..." format then "Demos Masallieton"


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    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    Thanks, tons of great information.

    If I were to role play this Republic, what direction of expansion would seem historically reasonable? If that is even an answerable question.

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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    Probably along the coast, in both directions, if you want to RP.

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    The Rhetorician Member Skullheadhq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    Thx! I think this answers my question! Have a Keravnos
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    Quote Originally Posted by tapanojum View Post
    Thanks, tons of great information.

    If I were to role play this Republic, what direction of expansion would seem historically reasonable? If that is even an answerable question.
    I would suggest an expansion all along the Rhône river basin as historically Massalia had colonies there along the river bank as far upriver as navigating it with a wooden boat would allow. Then an expansion towards the rest of Spanish coast and the expulsion of the Phoenicians there. Then the "reconquista" of Sardinia and corsica whose loss had created the Phocaean colonies of France and Spain (Massalia was the leader among them). Next target would have been probably the Etruscans as they allied with the Phoenicians had driven the Greeks from Sardinia and Corsica.

    Then, I suppose reclamation of all Sicily and a strike into Carthage itself might be considered.

    This is the historical "what-if" that I envision for Massalia should it be a conquering state.


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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    It would look bloody weird on the map though, and difficult to hold together.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    Keravnos, that sounds like an awesome and fun expansion actually. Only problem is, Rome seems really commited to taking Massalia.

    I may have to Cheat the game at the start in order to have Massalia and the other Greek cities nearby in order to have enough cash to support an expeditionary force as well as enough to stop the constant Roman onslaught.

    Or cheat by giving money to the Aeudui and hope they invest in keeping Rome occupied.

    Let's just hope that all of my FM's don't die at the first sign of attack, with the great luck I've been having with KH Generals. ;)

  15. #15

    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    It would look bloody weird on the map though, and difficult to hold together.
    True, which is why all Greek colonies at the region were very defensively minded. They did have each a catapult workshop and many catapults on the walls ready and waiting for any incursion to occur. There are excellent finds of catapults from Emporion (now Ampurias), which were mistaken for Napoleon time millitary crates when they were found.
    Last edited by keravnos; 12-30-2008 at 06:10.


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  16. #16
    Symbasileus ton Rhomaioktonon Member Maion Maroneios's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    Quote Originally Posted by keravnos View Post
    There are excellent finds of catapults from Emporion (now Ampurias), which were mistaken for Napoleon time millitary crates when they were found.
    Really? I didn't know that information When you say catapults you mean stone throwers like trebuchets of medieval periods, or something like stone-throwing scorpiones (I never figured out how this can be done scientifically, being a student of Physics and being interested in the mechanical properties of many things) EB offers?

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  17. #17

    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    Quote Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios View Post
    Really? I didn't know that information When you say catapults you mean stone throwers like trebuchets of medieval periods, or something like stone-throwing scorpiones (I never figured out how this can be done scientifically, being a student of Physics and being interested in the mechanical properties of many things) EB offers?

    Maion
    These are the ONLY catapults that ancients had, the following pic from the newly refurbished Ioannina Archaeological Museum


    Similar finds from the Achaeron Oracle "of the dead", dated from the time of 167, aka the sacking of Epeiros by Aemillius Paullus. Those below would be from different size catapults.


    What we now know as catapults were conceived around 400 CE, and would be called "Monangon" or "Single shouldered" in comparison to the ones in the first pic. Their ease of construction, however, and the loss of the earlier catapults during the dark ages, caused the word "catapult" (from greek "kata peltai" =against shields) to mean the later "monangon".

    Right now catapult is this,
    http://www.redstoneprojects.com/treb..._catapult.html

    The only thing it retained from the earlier greek "katapeltai" is the twisted rope that is in the base of it, whose twisted momentum becomes force for the "monangon" catapult arm to operate with.
    Last edited by keravnos; 12-31-2008 at 12:47.


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  18. #18

    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    A more correct map on the placement of Hellenic colonies on French coast, Massalia's territory.



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  19. #19

    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    Out of curiosity, by the time Massalia made the wrong choice in the civil wars that Caesar was in, how much of that was still under their control and not incorporated into one Roman province or another?
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  20. #20
    Symbasileus ton Rhomaioktonon Member Maion Maroneios's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    I see, very intersting and informative post keravnos. I shall have to do some more research on ancient warmachines, as it is a subject that interests me a lot

    Maion
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  21. #21
    EB Nitpicker Member oudysseos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    Very interesting... and timely for my next periplus chapter. Woohoo!
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  22. #22

    Default Re: Question: Kingdom of Massilia

    Only colony missing is Monaco, or "ΜΟΝΟΙΚΗ" as it was called, for " (of) a single house", seeing that it wasn't that big a colony to begin with.
    Last edited by keravnos; 01-20-2009 at 13:29.


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