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http://www.economist.com/world/europ...ry_id=12868180
Found this interesting. Not surprising that a group that was converted under the Ottomans would go back to Christianity (of one kind or another).
The Ottomans were a very secular Islamic empire, but I'm sure being a Muslim helped so many converted.
Found this interesting. Not surprising that a group that was converted under the Ottomans would go back to Christianity (of one kind or another).
The Ottomans were a very secular Islamic empire, but I'm sure being a Muslim helped so many converted.
According to that article many were Christians in the closet anyways, so it's not really a large change, only that they're becoming more open.
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars:
According to that article many were Christians in the closet anyways, so it's not really a large change, only that they're becoming more open.
True, but it's good to see they feel comfortable coming out with it.According to that article many were Christians in the closet anyways, so it's not really a large change, only that they're becoming more open.
The Saudi sheikh's are stepping up there game though. I read that one of them is spending 28million on a new mosque (maybe more than one?) in the region.
When will the world ever be free of the bloody missionaries?
The single worst feature of one of our world's religions, and lack of them the saving grace of every other religion....
The single worst feature of one of our world's religions, and lack of them the saving grace of every other religion....
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
When will the world ever be free of the bloody missionaries?
The single worst feature of one of our world's religions, and lack of them the saving grace of every other religion....
When will the world ever be free of the bloody missionaries?
The single worst feature of one of our world's religions, and lack of them the saving grace of every other religion....
Of the major religions, only judaism and hinduism have never tried to expand their religion to other people. And Buddhism was the first to give it a try.
And the reason why most of these people's ancestors converted to Islam in the first place is because....why do I even bother.
Originally Posted by Fenring:
Of the major religions, only judaism and hinduism have never tried to expand their religion to other people. And Buddhism was the first to give it a try.
And the reason why most of these people's ancestors converted to Islam in the first place is because....why do I even bother.
Of the major religions, only judaism and hinduism have never tried to expand their religion to other people. And Buddhism was the first to give it a try.
And the reason why most of these people's ancestors converted to Islam in the first place is because....why do I even bother.
Actually judaim did do the converting stuff but that was during the Romans
Originally Posted by Fenring:
Of the major religions, only judaism and hinduism have never tried to expand their religion to other people. And Buddhism was the first to give it a try.
There's a difference between "trying to expand a religion", and trying to shove your religion down the throat of every living soul on the planet, because they'll all go to hell if you don't.Of the major religions, only judaism and hinduism have never tried to expand their religion to other people. And Buddhism was the first to give it a try.
Originally Posted by Fenring:
And the reason why most of these people's ancestors converted to Islam in the first place is because....why do I even bother.
Because of the sword, because of trade and influence, because of alliances, because of a better chance to gain power, because those in power had that religion etc, the normal stuff. Not because a bunch of tele-evangelists held miracle rallies.And the reason why most of these people's ancestors converted to Islam in the first place is because....why do I even bother.
Originally Posted by :
Because of the sword, because of trade and influence, because of alliances, because of a better chance to gain power, because those in power had that religion etc, the normal stuff. Not because a bunch of tele-evangelists held miracle rallies.
And because the the Ottoman millet system (and the dhimmi tax under the Arabs in other areas), while tolerant of the existance of other religions, discriminated against them with additional taxes. Because of the sword, because of trade and influence, because of alliances, because of a better chance to gain power, because those in power had that religion etc, the normal stuff. Not because a bunch of tele-evangelists held miracle rallies.
Wich part of the article makes you think that conversion is shoved down their throat?
Originally Posted by Fenring:
And because the the Ottoman millet system (and the dhimmi tax under the Arabs in other areas), while tolerant of the existance of other religions, discriminated against them with additional taxes.
Are you going to whine that the Ottomans taxed a heretic a bit more at a time when we were burning the slightest divergence from the true faith at the stake...?And because the the Ottoman millet system (and the dhimmi tax under the Arabs in other areas), while tolerant of the existance of other religions, discriminated against them with additional taxes.
And I would say that the extra tax is covered by what I said, under "because of a better chance to gain power"...
Originally Posted by Fenring:
Wich part of the article makes you think that conversion is shoved down their throat?
That part was aimed at christianity in general Wich part of the article makes you think that conversion is shoved down their throat?
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
Are you going to whine that the Ottomans taxed a heretic a bit more at a time when we were burning the slightest divergence from the true faith at the stake...?
And I would say that the extra tax is covered by what I said, under "because of a better chance to gain power"...
That part was aimed at christianity in general
I will traverse seas to convert you and put your name on numerous church "please call me lists". You'll be suckin' down the Eucharist before your next birthday. Count on it.Are you going to whine that the Ottomans taxed a heretic a bit more at a time when we were burning the slightest divergence from the true faith at the stake...?
And I would say that the extra tax is covered by what I said, under "because of a better chance to gain power"...
That part was aimed at christianity in general
Originally Posted by :
Are you going to whine that the Ottomans taxed a heretic a bit more at a time when we were burning the slightest divergence from the true faith at the stake...?
Nope. But I'd put it in a different way: places in history that are generally labelled "enlightened safe havens" for religious minorities, like the Arab caliphates for most of their time or the Dutch republic in the 17th and 18th century, are more a reflection on what a cesspit the rest of the world was at the time.Are you going to whine that the Ottomans taxed a heretic a bit more at a time when we were burning the slightest divergence from the true faith at the stake...?
None of wich I consider particulary relevant today. Personally, I've only been approached two times by someone trying to convert me and they were both Jehovah's Witnesses (and to be fair, they weren't pushy about it)
How about you?
Originally Posted by Fenring:
Nope. But I'd put it in a different way: places in history that are generally labelled "enlightened safe havens" for religious minorities, like the Arab caliphates for most of their time or the Dutch republic in the 17th and 18th century, are more a reflection on what a cesspit the rest of the world was at the time.
I never did call them "enlightened safe havens" though Nope. But I'd put it in a different way: places in history that are generally labelled "enlightened safe havens" for religious minorities, like the Arab caliphates for most of their time or the Dutch republic in the 17th and 18th century, are more a reflection on what a cesspit the rest of the world was at the time.
And we do agree on that.
Originally Posted by Fenring:
None of wich I consider particulary relevant today. Personally, I've only been approached two times by someone trying to convert me and they were both Jehovah's Witnesses (and to be fair, they weren't pushy about it)
How about you?
Yes, two times is about the number of times I get approached. I assume you mean daily, yes?None of wich I consider particulary relevant today. Personally, I've only been approached two times by someone trying to convert me and they were both Jehovah's Witnesses (and to be fair, they weren't pushy about it)
How about you?
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff:
I will traverse seas to convert you and put your name on numerous church "please call me lists". You'll be suckin' down the Eucharist before your next birthday. Count on it.
I'm pretty sure someone already made that prank I will traverse seas to convert you and put your name on numerous church "please call me lists". You'll be suckin' down the Eucharist before your next birthday. Count on it.
Originally Posted by Fragony:
Actually judaim did do the converting stuff but that was during the Romans
that was because the romans had many harsh decrees against the jews so we hoped that by converting romans as much as we can, judaism would become more acceptable, thus having the oppressive laws removed.Actually judaim did do the converting stuff but that was during the Romans
after they saw it was hopeless they stopped.
also, its very hard to convert. judaism wants that so we get honest converts, not ones who are just looking for a life experience. the average conversion for Orthodox Judaism process takes about 2-3 years.
The (early) middle ages in Europe weren't nearly as bad for religious minorities as people like to think. Just about all major towns had thriving jewish communities and heretics were hardly prosecuted, that is about at the same time as the islamic golden age, prosecution of heretics was more political then religious little dispute between the HRE emperor and the Vatican.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investiture_Controversy
that was because the romans had many harsh decrees against the jews so we hoped that by converting romans as much as we can, judaism would become more acceptable, thus having the oppressive laws removed.
after they saw it was hopeless they stopped.
Not really, jews were pretty much left alone, been revolts that were put down the roman way but romans didn't really care, they were traditionalists, as long as you payed tribute to the gods and later the emperor they didn't really mind that much. That is why christians were prosecuted, they refused to pay honor and the romans feared that would bring harm over the empire since it would displease the gods.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investiture_Controversy
that was because the romans had many harsh decrees against the jews so we hoped that by converting romans as much as we can, judaism would become more acceptable, thus having the oppressive laws removed.
after they saw it was hopeless they stopped.
Not really, jews were pretty much left alone, been revolts that were put down the roman way but romans didn't really care, they were traditionalists, as long as you payed tribute to the gods and later the emperor they didn't really mind that much. That is why christians were prosecuted, they refused to pay honor and the romans feared that would bring harm over the empire since it would displease the gods.
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
That part was aimed at christianity in general
Even atheists try to do that to Christians, so relax.That part was aimed at christianity in general
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
That part was aimed at christianity in general
We don't do it in general, and if you are seriously trying to tell us that you get approached twice a day then, unless you pick theological fights, I'm flat out not going to believe you.That part was aimed at christianity in general
Now, onto the topic at hand. What seems to have happened here is that a nominally Muslim group of people without strong ties to the religion have decided they would like to convert. The really interesting part here is that this seems to be happening now, perhaps because there is no longer an Us-them, Muslim-Christian, dynamic.
Regardless of your religious leaning this is a wonderful story because it shows people are willing to break with a national identity and make personal choices, that is a very positive sign for the stability and openness of the society.
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars:
Even atheists try to do that to Christians, so relax.
I'm sorry, but I have yet to see atheists(or any other non-christian) do any of the following:Even atheists try to do that to Christians, so relax.
- distribute flyers telling you you're going to hell if you don't follow the true religion
- stand around in streets or whatever to preach
- send missionaries on door to door missions*
- organize massive rallies to convert people
- organize miracle rallies to make people believe
....and this is just a few of the billion number of extremely annoying ways the christians use to convert people. Please stop. I'm tired.
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
We don't do it in general, and if you are seriously trying to tell us that you get approached twice a day then, unless you pick theological fights, I'm flat out not going to believe you.
Not any more, because I'm switched jobs. However, at my old job, every day I went to buy some lunch, and on my way to buy said lunch, I would be pestered by the same idiot handing out the watchtower. First on my way there, then once again on the way backWe don't do it in general, and if you are seriously trying to tell us that you get approached twice a day then, unless you pick theological fights, I'm flat out not going to believe you.
*this one is by far the most annoying one
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
Not any more, because I'm switched jobs. However, at my old job, every day I went to buy some lunch, and on my way to buy said lunch, I would be pestered by the same idiot handing out the watchtower. First on my way there, then once again on the way back
*this one is by far the most annoying one
So you have a grudge against the christian religion because of that *one* guy?Not any more, because I'm switched jobs. However, at my old job, every day I went to buy some lunch, and on my way to buy said lunch, I would be pestered by the same idiot handing out the watchtower. First on my way there, then once again on the way back
*this one is by far the most annoying one
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
I'm sorry, but I have yet to see atheists(or any other non-christian) do any of the following:
I'm sorry, but I have yet to see atheists(or any other non-christian) do any of the following:
Originally Posted by :
- distribute flyers telling you you're going to hell if you don't follow the true religion
You do realize how that sounds, right? But I've seen posters, billboards, signs, flyers, you name it. A quick Google Image should probably help you out as well.- distribute flyers telling you you're going to hell if you don't follow the true religion
Originally Posted by :
- stand around in streets or whatever to preach
I've seen Muslims do that as well as atheists and Christians. All of the above rarely stand in the streets and preach, but I've found that many atheists "preach" in schools and workplaces I have attended.- stand around in streets or whatever to preach
Originally Posted by :
- send missionaries on door to door missions
Jehovah's Witnesses don't count.- send missionaries on door to door missions
Originally Posted by :
- organize massive rallies to convert people
I've yet to see a rally to convert people. I've seen many rallies as gatherings of those who are already faithful.- organize massive rallies to convert people
Originally Posted by :
....and this is just a few of the billion number of extremely annoying ways the christians use to convert people. Please stop. I'm tired.
Don't you think it's also annoying to have atheists follow you around and tell you that you're wrong? I don't get many Christians preaching to me, and I didn't when I was of an agnostic bent either. I constantly get atheists telling me I'm wrong.....and this is just a few of the billion number of extremely annoying ways the christians use to convert people. Please stop. I'm tired.
Yes, Come to the True Relgion, Christianity!! 
(Joke, don't mean any offense you know
)
(Joke, don't mean any offense you know
)Originally Posted by HoreTore:
I'm sorry, but I have yet to see atheists(or any other non-christian) do any of the following:
- distribute flyers telling you you're going to hell if you don't follow the true religion
Seen this from atheists, though obviously not going to "hell"I'm sorry, but I have yet to see atheists(or any other non-christian) do any of the following:
- distribute flyers telling you you're going to hell if you don't follow the true religion
Originally Posted by :
- stand around in streets or whatever to preach
Saw this once over Christmas, they were Evangelicals and American sponsored, I've had more contact with weirdo sects this year, and Buddhists a couple of times.- stand around in streets or whatever to preach
Originally Posted by :
- send missionaries on door to door missions*
This is the people of the JH persuasion, they're often quite nice actually. I usually invite them in for a cup of tea, just like my mum does. After all, they do a thankless job. Never come across a Christian denomination that does this.- send missionaries on door to door missions*
Originally Posted by :
- organize massive rallies to convert people
Never even heard of this- organize massive rallies to convert people
Originally Posted by :
- organize miracle rallies to make people believe
Heard of this, never heard of one near me. Personally I'd be more worried about a demon possessing the miracle worker than I'd expect a cure. I'm not big on demons- organize miracle rallies to make people believe
Originally Posted by :
....and this is just a few of the billion number of extremely annoying ways the christians use to convert people. Please stop. I'm tired.
No more than two of which apply to any Christian I have met.....and this is just a few of the billion number of extremely annoying ways the christians use to convert people. Please stop. I'm tired.
Why don't you stop with the insulting and, frankly, ignorant generalisation.
Originally Posted by :
Not any more, because I'm switched jobs. However, at my old job, every day I went to buy some lunch, and on my way to buy said lunch, I would be pestered by the same idiot handing out the watchtower. First on my way there, then once again on the way back
One guy? That's your basis for hating religion in all it's forms?Not any more, because I'm switched jobs. However, at my old job, every day I went to buy some lunch, and on my way to buy said lunch, I would be pestered by the same idiot handing out the watchtower. First on my way there, then once again on the way back
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
One guy? That's your basis for hating religion in all it's forms?
Don't be unfair Philipvs, HoreTore always singles out christianity in his rants One guy? That's your basis for hating religion in all it's forms?
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
One guy? That's your basis for hating religion in all it's forms?
Nah. My fundamentalist relatives took care of that pickle pretty much from the beginning...One guy? That's your basis for hating religion in all it's forms?
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
After all, they do a thankless job.
As well as an utterly pointless, irrelevant, annoying and idiotic job. Get a haircut and a real job, lousy hippies.After all, they do a thankless job.
Originally Posted by Fenring:
Don't be unfair Philipvs, HoreTore always singles out christianity in his rants
That's not true!! I also pick on conservatives, market libbies and nationalists...Don't be unfair Philipvs, HoreTore always singles out christianity in his rants
Seen this from atheists, though obviously not going to "hell"
So you've seen atheists dristribute flyers saying people are going to if they don't follow the true religion...
the words religion and hell wouldn't really play with an atheist flyer (unless they were questioning them) so i dont see how atheists could do something similar without hell mentioned...
I have never once had an atheist try to convert me, many times people have attempted to convert me to christianity... im sure there are atheists who try to force thier beliefs on others, but they are hugely outnumbered by christians who try to force thier beliefs on others...
So you've seen atheists dristribute flyers saying people are going to if they don't follow the true religion...
the words religion and hell wouldn't really play with an atheist flyer (unless they were questioning them) so i dont see how atheists could do something similar without hell mentioned...
I have never once had an atheist try to convert me, many times people have attempted to convert me to christianity... im sure there are atheists who try to force thier beliefs on others, but they are hugely outnumbered by christians who try to force thier beliefs on others...
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly:
So you've seen atheists dristribute flyers saying people are going to if they don't follow the true religion...
The way HoreTore worded his post was obviously a little strange. However, yes, I have seen (and I presume he has seen as well) atheists distributing flyers saying that religion is wrong.So you've seen atheists dristribute flyers saying people are going to if they don't follow the true religion...
Originally Posted by :
im sure there are atheists who try to force thier beliefs on others, but they are hugely outnumbered by christians who try to force thier beliefs on others...
Perhaps it is a matter of location, but I've always had many more militant atheists trying to talk me into following their quasi-religion.im sure there are atheists who try to force thier beliefs on others, but they are hugely outnumbered by christians who try to force thier beliefs on others...
I agree in many circumstances it's annoying and often they sound ignorant, but when they're telling you that you're going to hell, in many cases they genuinly believe what they're talking about and want to "save" you. At least from what my right wing Christian conservatives tell me...
Converting seems to be a problem when money is involved. For example Mormons require members of the church to send 1/10th (I think that's the fraction) of their income to the Mormon church. There is a perfect reason to have aggressive conversion stances...
Converting seems to be a problem when money is involved. For example Mormons require members of the church to send 1/10th (I think that's the fraction) of their income to the Mormon church. There is a perfect reason to have aggressive conversion stances...
Perhaps it is a matter of location, but I've always had many more militant atheists trying to talk me into following their quasi-religion.
Well to be honest in personal experience its hardly any of either, in school it simply wasn't discussed except in r.e. though thinking on it that means we get told about all the religions but not atheism... but in personal experience very little of christianity, and well i never see like a group of people in town centre trying to tell people theres no god, maybe it only happens in fairly big cities but in the likes of newport and cardiff and i can honestly say i haven't seen it (not that im there all the time)
I was more basing my opinion on the fact that there are big powerful organisations with commited followers who want to convert people, whereas there seem to be little disorganised groups of atheists making the odd effort, with things like the bus advertising topic we discussed a while back...
Well to be honest in personal experience its hardly any of either, in school it simply wasn't discussed except in r.e. though thinking on it that means we get told about all the religions but not atheism... but in personal experience very little of christianity, and well i never see like a group of people in town centre trying to tell people theres no god, maybe it only happens in fairly big cities but in the likes of newport and cardiff and i can honestly say i haven't seen it (not that im there all the time)
I was more basing my opinion on the fact that there are big powerful organisations with commited followers who want to convert people, whereas there seem to be little disorganised groups of atheists making the odd effort, with things like the bus advertising topic we discussed a while back...
Originally Posted by Alexanderofmacedon:
I agree in many circumstances it's annoying and often they sound ignorant, but when they're telling you that you're going to hell, in many cases they genuinly believe what they're talking about and want to "save" you. At least from what my right wing Christian conservatives tell me...
So what? Why on earth should I care...?I agree in many circumstances it's annoying and often they sound ignorant, but when they're telling you that you're going to hell, in many cases they genuinly believe what they're talking about and want to "save" you. At least from what my right wing Christian conservatives tell me...
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
When will the world ever be free of the bloody missionaries?
The single worst feature of one of our world's religions, and lack of them the saving grace of every other religion....
You don't understand what's happening here, do you?When will the world ever be free of the bloody missionaries?
The single worst feature of one of our world's religions, and lack of them the saving grace of every other religion....
CR
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