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Thread: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    To: The Great Satan

    Merry Christmas

    Love,

    The Ayatollah

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Column One: The 'realist' fantasy
    By CAROLINE GLICK
    Link

    Both Iran and its Hamas proxy in Gaza have been busy this Christmas week showing Christendom just what they think of it. But no one seems to have noticed.

    On Tuesday, Hamas legislators marked the Christmas season by passing a Shari'a criminal code for the Palestinian Authority. Among other things, it legalizes crucifixion.

    Hamas's endorsement of nailing enemies of Islam to crosses came at the same time it renewed its jihad. Here, too, Hamas wanted to make sure that Christians didn't feel neglected as its fighters launched missiles at Jewish day care centers and schools. So on Wednesday, Hamas lobbed a mortar shell at the Erez crossing point into Israel just as a group of Gazan Christians were standing on line waiting to travel to Bethlehem for Christmas.

    While Hamas joyously renewed its jihad against Jews and Christians, its overlords in Iran also basked in jihadist triumphalism. The source of Teheran's sense of ascendancy this week was Britain's Channel 4 network's decision to request that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad give a special Christmas Day address to the British people. Ahmadinejad's speech was supposed to be a response to Queen Elizabeth II's traditional Christmas Day address to her subjects. That is, Channel 4 presented his message as a reasonable counterpoint to the Christmas greetings of the head of the Church of England.

    Channel 4 justified its move by proclaiming that it was providing a public service. As a spokesman told The Jerusalem Post, "We're offering [Ahmadinejad] the chance to speak for himself, which people in the West don't often get the chance to see."

    While that sounds reasonable, the fact is that Westerners see Ahmadinejad speaking for himself all the time. They saw him at the UN two years in a row as he called for the countries of the world to submit to Islam; claimed that Iran's nuclear weapons program is divinely inspired; and castigated Jews as subhuman menaces to humanity.

    They saw him gather leading anti-Semites from all over the world at his Holocaust denial conference.

    They heard him speak in his own words when he called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

    And of course, over the years Ahmadinejad has often communicated directly to the British people. For instance, in 2007 he received unlimited airtime on UK television as he paraded kidnapped British sailors and marines in front of television cameras; forced them to make videotaped "confessions" of their "crime" of entering Iranian territorial waters; and compelled them to grovel at his knee and thank him for "forgiving" them.

    The British people listened to Ahmadinejad as he condemned Britain as a warmongering nation after its leaders had surrendered Basra to Iranian proxies. They heard him - speaking in his own voice - when he announced that in a gesture of Islamic mercy, he was freeing their humiliated sailors and marines in honor of Muhammad's birthday and Easter, and then called on all Britons to convert to Islam.

    Yet as far as Channel 4 is concerned, Ahmadinejad is still an unknown quantity for most Britons. So they asked him to address the nation on Christmas. And not surprisingly, in his address, he attacked their way of life and co-opted their Jewish savior, Jesus, saying, "If Christ was on earth today, undoubtedly he would stand with the people in opposition to bullying, ill-tempered and expansionist powers."

    He then reiterated his call for non-Muslims to convert to Islam saying, "The solution to today's problems can be found in a return to the call of the divine prophets."

    THE FACT of the matter is that Channel 4 is right. There is a great deal of ignorance in the West about what the likes of Ahmadinejad and his colleagues in Iran, Syria, Hizbullah and Hamas stand for. But this isn't their fault. They tell us every day that they seek the destruction of the Jews and the domination of the West in the name of Islam. And every day they take actions that they believe advance their goals.

    The reason that the West remains ignorant of the views and goals of the likes of Hamas and Iran is not that the latter have hidden their views and goals. It is because the leading political leaders and foreign policy practitioners in the West refuse to listen to them and deny the significance of their actions.

    As far as the West's leaders are concerned, Iran and its allies are unimportant. They are not actors, but objects. As far as the West's leading foreign policy "experts" and decision-makers are concerned, the only true actors on the global stage are Western powers. They alone have the power to shape reality and the world. Oddly enough, this dominant political philosophy, which is based on denying the existence of non-Western actors on the world stage, is referred to as political "realism."

    The "realist" view was given clear expression this week by one of the "realist" clique's most prominent members. In an op-ed published Tuesday in Canada's Globe and Mail titled, "We must talk Iran out of the bomb," Richard Haass, the president of the Council on Foreign Relations, argued that given the dangers of a nuclear-armed Iran and the dangers of a US or Israeli strike against Iran's nuclear installations, the incoming Obama administration must hold direct negotiations with the mullahs to convince them to end their nuclear weapons program.

    In making this argument, Haass ignores the fact that this has been the Bush administration's policy for the past five years. He also ignores the fact that President George W. Bush adopted this policy at the urging of Haass's "realist" colleagues and at the urging of Haass himself.

    Moreover, Haass bizarrely contends that in negotiating with the mullahs, the Obama administration should offer Iran the same package of economic and political payoffs that the Bush administration and the EU have been offering, and Teheran has been rejecting, since 2003.

    Even more disturbingly, Haass ignores the fact that Teheran made its greatest leaps forward in its uranium enrichment capabilities while it was engaged in these talks with the West.

    So in making his recommendation to the Obama administration - which has already announced its intention to negotiate with the mullahs - Haass has chosen to ignore Iran's statements, its actions, and known facts about the West's inability to steer it from its course of war by showering it with pay-offs.

    Haass and his colleagues in the US, Europe and on the Israeli Left are similarly unwilling to pay attention to Hamas. In an article in the current edition of Foreign Affairs, Haass and his colleague Martin Indyk from the Brookings Institute call on the Obama administration to either ignore Hamas, or, if it abides by a cease-fire with Israel, they suggest that the Obama administration should support a joint Hamas-Fatah government and "authorize low-level contact between US officials and Hamas." The fact that Hamas itself is wholly dedicated to Israel's destruction and Islamic global domination is irrelevant.

    Similarly, Haass and Indyk assume that Damascus can be appeased into abandoning its support for Hizbullah and Hamas, and its strategic alliance with Iran. Syrian President Bashar Assad's views of how his interests are best served are unimportant. Both Assad's statements of eternal friendship with Iran and his active involvement in Iran's war effort against the US and its allies in Israel, Iraq and Lebanon are meaningless. The "realists" know what he really wants.

    MUSLIMS AREN'T the only ones whose views and actions are dismissed as irrelevant by these foreign policy wise men. The "realists" ignore just about every non-Western actor. Take Iran's principal Asian ally, North Korea, for example.

    This week North Korea's official news agency threatened to destroy South Korea in a "sea of fire," and "reduce everything treacherous and anti-reunification to debris and build an independent, reunified country on it," if any country dares to attack its nuclear installations.

    North Korea made its threat two weeks after Kim Jung Il's regime disengaged from its fraudulent disarmament talks with the Bush administration. Those talks - the brainchild of foreign policy "realists" Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Assistant Secretary Christopher Hill - were based on the "realist" belief that the US can appease North Korea into giving up its nuclear arsenal. (That would be the same nuclear arsenal that the North Koreans built while engaged in fraudulent disarmament talks with the Clinton administration.)



    After Pyongyang agreed in February 2007 to eventually come clean on its plutonium installations (but not its uranium enrichment programs), and to account for its nuclear arsenal (but not for its proliferation activities), Rice convinced President Bush to remove North Korea from the State Department's list of state sponsors of terror and to end its subjection to the US's Trading with the Enemy Act this past October. And then, after securing those massive US concessions, on December 11 Pyongyang renounced its commitments, walked away from the table and now threatens to destroy South Korea if anyone takes any action against it.

    North Korea's behavior is of no interest to the "realists," however. As far as they are concerned, the US has no option other than to continue the failed appeasement policy that has enabled North Korea to develop and proliferate nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles. As the Council on Foreign Relations' Gary Samore said, "I think we're sort of condemned to that process, because we don't really have any alternative."

    Samore and his colleagues believe there are no other options because all other options involve placing responsibility for contending with North Korea on non-Western powers like China, South Korea and Japan. More radically, they involve holding North Korea accountable for its actions and making it pay a price for its poor behavior.

    As the "realists" claim that the US has no option other than their failed appeasement policies, back in the real world, this week military officials from the US's Pacific Command warned that North Korea may supply Iran with intercontinental ballistic missiles. These warnings are credible given that North Korea has been the primary supplier of ballistic missiles and missile technology to Iran and Syria and has played a major role in both countries' nuclear weapons programs.

    Defending Channel 4's invitation to Ahmadinejad, Dorothy Byrne, the network's head of news and current affairs, said, "As the leader of one of the most powerful states in the Middle East, President Ahmadinejad's views are enormously influential. As we approach a critical time in international relations, we are offering our viewers an insight into an alternative world view."

    When you think about it, broadcasting Ahmadinejad really would have been a public service if Byrne or any of the delusional "realists" calling the shots were remotely interested in listening to what he has to say. But they aren't. So far from a public service for Britain, it was a service for those who, unbeknownst to most Britons, are dedicated to destroying their country.

    caroline@carolineglick.com

    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 12-31-2008 at 19:15.
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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    People will, of course, continue to defend them...


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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    People will, of course, continue to defend them...

    I'll be curious to see if they actually go ahead and carry one out.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    This kinda sounds like a bull story

    The "realists" ignore just about every non-Western actor

    If that surprises you you aren't familiar with the realist theories

    http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/morg6.htm
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-31-2008 at 19:16.

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    Senior Member Senior Member naut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    I adore the sensationalist style of writing.
    #Hillary4prism

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rythmic View Post
    I adore the sensationalist style of writing.
    The article was irrelevant, for the most part. I just wanted us to laugh together about Hamas legalizing crucifixion. What freaking jerks.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
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    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    I heard the Germans boiled babies in the first world war too...
    Last edited by Lord Winter; 12-31-2008 at 20:49.
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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Not sure if its funny or sad, a mix of both emotions, bunch of wacko's

    People will, of course, continue to defend them...

    I know it's insane!

    If you look aound the forum there are people defending israel as well!!

    takes all types though i guess..
    Last edited by LittleGrizzly; 12-31-2008 at 21:26.
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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Hot air is cheap. For anybody.
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    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Might as well legalize Drawn-and-Quarterings while they're at it. Since nailing someone to a cross isn't complete non-sense and brutal.

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    It has quite a lot of point if you want to execute someone slowly and painfully you know. Which is exactly what it's been historically used for of course.

    Anyway, I'd rather have this in a bit more credible-looking source before believing. ...and doesn't Hamas have kind of a shortage of "enemies of Islam" down in Gaza, anyway ? I mean, they killed or drove off all the PLO guys already too...
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Well it had to happem , Flick is ever so slightly Gucked

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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Iran owns Hezbollah not Hamass. I give her an A for effort though!
    Last edited by Vladimir; 01-02-2009 at 14:33.


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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    Iran owns Hezbollah not Hamass. I give her an A for effort though!
    Well couldn't you say that Iran owns Hamas in every way except nominally, since it so heavily funds them?
    I support Israel

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    My understanding was that Hamas was the Palestinian extgension of the Muslim Brotherhood, which would make them Sunni, if I'm not completely mistaken. (Details on the MB/Hamas relationship.)

    Iran is Shia, Hamas is Sunni. Do we need to go over the Sunni/Shia thing again, or are we all still convinced that Saddam and Osama Bin Laden are gay lovers who planned 9/11 together?

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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    I'm sure there are other sources of funds. Hitting one's enemies via proxy is cheap and effective - and you can even use it to test newer weapon systems as well!

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    My understanding was that Hamas was the Palestinian extgension of the Muslim Brotherhood, which would make them Sunni, if I'm not completely mistaken. (Details on the MB/Hamas relationship.)

    Iran is Shia, Hamas is Sunni. Do we need to go over the Sunni/Shia thing again, or are we all still convinced that Saddam and Osama Bin Laden are gay lovers who planned 9/11 together?
    That is a pretty linear and unrealistic way of looking at Iran and Hamas. "Oh, they are seperate denominations of Islam, so there is no way that they could ally themselves against the Great Satan for a certain period of time."

    The reality is that the majority of Palestinians are Sunni. And yet, Iranian leadership has made a core tennant of their foreign policy to slam Israel and come to the defense of the Palestinians? how is this possible - what about the Sunni/Shi'a divide?

    Look at it as more of an Urban II/Alexios I connection. I'd say that 10's of thousands of dead Sunni palestinians under the "protective eye" of Shia Iran fits the character of Shia's "defending" Sunnis from Israel.

    I beleive that Hamas' electoral victory changed the level of support from Iran.

    Here is a story about Iranian reactions to Gaza

    Here is a thoroughly biased and arguable Israeli account of the change.

    Here is an Iranian account that many will likely say is the same support that the U.S. is giving Hamas (although our money might be contingent on not killing Israelis while Irans is contingent on a fixed number of corpses)

    All I know is that I'd send money to Anglicans fighting atheists to the death in the UK. In any other in-house situation regarding Anglicans and Catholics, they can burn for their heresy I can only expect of others what I'd expect of myself.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 01-02-2009 at 17:57.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Iran is Shia, Hamas is Sunni. Do we need to go over the Sunni/Shia thing again, or are we all still convinced that Saddam and Osama Bin Laden are gay lovers who planned 9/11 together?
    I new it!


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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    My understanding was that Hamas was the Palestinian extgension of the Muslim Brotherhood, which would make them Sunni, if I'm not completely mistaken. (Details on the MB/Hamas relationship.)

    Iran is Shia, Hamas is Sunni. Do we need to go over the Sunni/Shia thing again, or are we all still convinced that Saddam and Osama Bin Laden are gay lovers who planned 9/11 together?
    I don't follow your logic. Because Saddam's Secular-Sunni Baath party wasn't alligned with the fanatically religious Salafi-Sunni Al-qaeda 10 years ago, religious Shi'ites can't support religious Sunnis who are under threat from percieved aggressors today?

    How different would you say Sunnis and Shiias are? As different as Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox? How about Roman Catholics and Lutherans? Do you honestly beleive that these groups can't work together when they both feel threatened by the same things?

    I wonder who is being naive here. International Realism suggests a claim. Religious similarity compared to the threat suggests a claim. Take your pick on rationale, but I don't beleive that it is much of a stretch to claim Iranian support for Palestinian resistance to Israel.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 01-02-2009 at 20:50.
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    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    I'll be curious to see if they actually go ahead and carry one out.
    If they actually go ahead with one, any and all support from the West will whither away quickly and Israel will have less International pressure and condemnation when dealing with Hamas as is doing now.
    BLARGH!

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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Iran is Shia, Hamas is Sunni. Do we need to go over the Sunni/Shia thing again, or are we all still convinced that Saddam and Osama Bin Laden are gay lovers who planned 9/11 together?
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    The article was irrelevant, for the most part. I just wanted us to laugh together about Hamas legalizing crucifixion. What freaking jerks.
    Uhm.....

    Your country has the death penalty too, TuffStuff. Are we supposed to laugh at you too, or what? What joke am I missing here?
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Uhm.....

    Your country has the death penalty too, TuffStuff. Are we supposed to laugh at you too, or what? What joke am I missing here?
    Well, electro shocks are a lot more humane because the eyes come put of their sockets and stuff. You really have to see the difference here...


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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    There is a difference, minutes vs days.

    Really though, I do hope they aren't planning to kill Christians by crucifying them. That would make Hamas into the ultimate joke as far as oppressive theocracies go, and it would make Gaza the ultimate destination of Christian pilgrimage after Jerusalem.

    I wonder if there's a way to get them to scourge you too?
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Uhm.....

    Your country has the death penalty too, TuffStuff. Are we supposed to laugh at you too, or what? What joke am I missing here?
    Nice. What if we brought back the "Atheist Hammer" which is essentially a hammer used on every 5 inches of an atheists body with extreme predjudice? Of course, it wasn't originally used on atheists alone, so it doesn't target them in particular, even though for everyone else we will use the more humane public stoning or public hanging.

    I'm not a proponent of the civilian death penalty, so obviously I have additional concern about hammering nails into peoples wrists and leaving them to asphixiate for half a day in the hot sun, only to have a heart attack and die from pain and stress. But that's just me. Maybe some people would prefer that aveneue for something like talking to people about becoming a Christian, going out with a boy that your parents don't approve of, etc. You know, serious transgressions against God.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 01-03-2009 at 15:47.
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    Nice. What if we brought back the "Atheist Hammer" which is essentially a hammer used on every 5 inches of an atheists body with extreme predjudice? Of course, it wasn't originally used on atheists alone, so it doesn't target them in particular, even though for everyone else we will use the more humane public stoning or public hanging.

    I'm not a proponent of the civilian death penalty, so obviously I have additional concern about hammering nails into peoples wrists and leaving them to asphixiate for half a day in the hot sun, only to have a heart attack and die from pain and stress. But that's just me. Maybe some people would prefer that aveneue for something like talking to people about becoming a Christian, going out with a boy that your parents don't approve of, etc. You know, serious transgressions against God.
    Yes. It's indeed barbaric. As every death penalty is. A "humane" execution is the ridiculous concept. An execution is never, ever a humane thing. Debating which method is the worst is idiotic IMO, as they're all horrible, barbaric and inhumane.

    The only thing that worries me about this, is that the world has yet another death penalty law in use. But I see little reason to ridicule a New Yorker because of it....

    In fact, I'd say this method of execution is far better to have than a needle. Everyone knows this method is horrible. Everyone knows it's barbaric. But the needle is anonymous. People don't think as much of it. And that's far more dangerous, because less people will oppose it, which means we'll have less chance of ridding the world of this barbaric practice.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  27. #27
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    So in the time it takes for Hamas to realize its wrongs and abolishes the death penalty, you would prefer the condemned to be tortured for hours before the execution.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    So are we going to disscuss hypotheticals on something that a) we have no conformation on or b) we have no way to know if it will ever be carried out. Give me an artical from a realiable news source that they actually crucified someone then we can talk about it.
    When it occurs to a man that nature does not regard him as important and that she feels she would not maim the universe by disposing of him, he at first wishes to throw bricks at the temple, and he hates deeply the fact that there are no bricks and no temples
    -Stephen Crane

  29. #29
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Winter View Post
    So are we going to disscuss hypotheticals on something that a) we have no conformation on or b) we have no way to know if it will ever be carried out. Give me an artical from a realiable news source that they actually crucified someone then we can talk about it.
    I can't find a "reliable" news source but there are several blog entries from reasonably sensible and informed people noting that there has been no such law passed. This may account for the fact that ispo facto, there are no news reports.

    There does seem to be a consensus that such a draft penal code may be in discussion, however. Whether it includes crucifixion appears to be a moot point, as no-one has yet seen the draft in detail.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

  30. #30

    Default Re: Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

    So Flick really was Glucked when she included an urban legend that had already been withdrawn from its source as untrue in her column .
    What a surprise .

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