The Scourge of Ephesus [Concluded]

[Thermal]

Reminder, to tincow inparticular
Rythmic was mafia in my family guy game, and he lurked similarly as he is this game, see this as suspicious

Also i think Tiberus could be scum, he says reenk is vague and annoys him, when quite frankly tiberus has been vague throughout, it would make sense for him to want to kill a dangerous townie like reenk, and has been just enough active for him to be able to do so

[glyphz]

Vote: YLC

For now. If he is responsible for RR's death, and so soon after TevashSzat's death hinted that there's something more about him.
I'd like to hear from GH and Jolt, too.

edit:

Glyphz
Last Activity: Today 01:53
Voted for TinCow = Bad. Voted for TevashSzat = Neutral, for now.
Seems to be trying to contribute. I can't fault him yet.

I believe D1 I voted for FactionHeir.

Tally:

GeneralHankerchief: 3 - (Askthepizzaguy, Sigurd, shlin28)

seireikhaan: 1 - (Ibn-Khaldun)
FactionHeir: 1 - (boudica)
Jolt: 1 - (Yoyoma1910)
YLC: 1 - (glyphz)

Abstain: 3 - (GH, CountArach, FH)

[Quintus.JC]

On my defence, I'm never on weekends, Thus why I didn't vote for lynch. Also, it basically practically proves I'm not from the Mafia (Since most Mafia guys decided to kill this night).

EDIT: As further proof, if you check the MTW Game, I also didn't participate there. :P

Please explain yourself on this, a couple of days off-line never clears anyone off crime, and now others have been accusing you of blantly lying; this is particularly foolish for a mafia to do, and assuming you're town, what is the reason for you to lie?

Anyways, can we lynch the athletic guy? He gets on my nerves. >_>

We're in agreement here, he's always there. I wanna lynch the old guy too.

@ATPG: That's some excellent anaylsis you've wrote there, hoping that it would provoke some meanful response from people.

My feeling in this game is that there must be at least one verteran player and one rookie as mafia, a lot of the verterans aren't talking much and voting abstains. I know there have reasons for it, but they needs to be checked out anyway.

I think Rythmic is likely to be innocent in this game, partnering him in family guy has given me a small insight into his game play. Family Guy mafia was his first game as mafia, he made reasonable contributions (misleding of course) and stayed off the radar, but blanking out completely and not saying anything is too much risk for a mafia to take. I feel the same about Lord Winter too, to me his absence from the guild altogether (for a week?) seems to be evidence enough of his innocence, but he is surely to be WOG'ed very, very soon.

Keep on accusing the seniors, GH's got enough vote on him to keep him from drifting away. I don't have anyone particular in mind and therefore won't vote at the moment.

This game has just got really interesting, plus Andres' write ups are great to read... and funny too.

[Quintus.JC]

Reminder, to tincow inparticular
Rythmic was mafia in my family guy game, and he lurked similarly as he is this game, see this as suspicious

I don't think Rythic is mafia, although that's just personal opionion and I have little source to back that up.

Also i think Tiberus could be scum, he says reenk is vague and annoys him, when quite frankly tiberus has been vague throughout, it would make sense for him to want to kill a dangerous townie like reenk, and has been just enough active for him to be able to do so

I share your feeling with Tiberus, I would like to hear him talk in his defence. Jolt needs to explain himself too, althought I'm less suspicious about him.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I believe D1 I voted for FactionHeir.

You are correct. I got the days mixed up. My sincerest apologies.

[glyphz]

@ Atpg: No worries.

@ Quintus: Lynching the old man might not be a good idea. The old man fits w/ Reenk's claim of an old man blocker role. He's likely to be anti-scum/pro-town. The athletic guy... could be another story though.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If I recall... My analysis of the previous game revealed that the anonymous "town captain" who leads our lynches had some role.

I don't remember, and I am engaged in something ATM. Could someone check?

[Quintus.JC]

@ Atpg: No worries.

@ Quintus: Lynching the old man might not be a good idea. The old man fits w/ Reenk's claim of an old man blocker role. He's likely to be anti-scum/pro-town.

Actually I believe this is the case.

Night 1 PM from Andres

An old man wakes you up. He wants to show you something, he says.

He takes you to a secret hiding place and starts talking to you and another man. He tells you several stories. They are boring and you fall asleep.

Andres.

As an odinary townie I didn't have the ability to do anything at night, however the post suggests that the old man is in fact a blocker, and likely pro-town.

I only wanted to lynch the old guy because he's annoying, just like the athletic guy.

Edit: Another guy was blocked too, suggesting that the man could possible block two people on one night?

[boudica]

Come on you lurkers! after last nights events surely its obvious that even painting a big sign saying "lynch me" on yourself is safer than hiding in the latrines!

[Askthepizzaguy]

If we have a blocker that we can communicate with, we might be able to clear some people.

A blocker functions much like an investigator. If you block someone, and they don't kill, then they could be mafia.

The mafia are now aware of this tactic, but they do not know which night which person will be blocked. And if they wanted to convincingly allow someone else to be blocked, and then not kill, they still have to not kill, which is to our advantage.

I highly recommend we devise a strategy involving the blocker, to narrow down our suspect list. But it must be unpredictable, even to people who are aware of it.

[TinCow]

If I recall... My analysis of the previous game revealed that the anonymous "town captain" who leads our lynches had some role.

I don't remember, and I am engaged in something ATM. Could someone check?

In the first game, the person who organized the lynch voting was the Carabinieri (detective). When he was killed, the write-up showed that he was dead. It did not indicate which of the people murdered that night was the Carabinieri, but it later turned out to be Rythmic.

IMO, Andres appears to be doing the same thing in this game. The 'athletic man' is a pro-town detective or some other pro-town role. As long as he keeps appearing in the day phase write-ups, we still have at least one power role alive.

[Quintus.JC]

If we have a blocker that we can communicate with, we might be able to clear some people.

A blocker functions much like an investigator. If you block someone, and they don't kill, then they could be mafia.

The mafia are now aware of this tactic, but they do not know which night which person will be blocked. And if they wanted to convincingly allow someone else to be blocked, and then not kill, they still have to not kill, which is to our advantage.

I highly recommend we devise a strategy involving the blocker, to narrow down our suspect list. But it must be unpredictable, even to people who are aware of it.

Interesting idea, a bit risky though. We can hardly trust anyone that's even been blocked for a night, we are also putting the blocker's live in danger. Though if the idea works then it would be very benificial to town, in my opionion there are simply far too many people alive for the list to be narrowed down.

[Askthepizzaguy]

it's not a foolproof idea, no.

However, it could... encourage... the mafia not to murder quite so much, to make the people we block seem guilty.

THAT is absolutely 100% beneficial for town, even if the "block" doesnt absolutely clear someone or make someone guilty.

[TinCow]

If it matters, in the previous game the night write-ups showed when the role blocker (Prostitute) was active. In the current game, we've seen some maniac laughing hysterically and destroying the statue of Artemis at night. This indicates the activity of a role which is not a normal mafioso. It is also consistent with the way in which Reenk Roink was behaving. The write-up of his death came immediately after the maniac's night action, which would allow for the possibility it was him. I would suggest that if we see no more of the night-time maniac, it was Reenk Roink and he is now dead. The question then remains whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, as the maniac write-up does not appear consistent with a role blocker.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Okay people, Monday is not really going to be a good day for me for several months now, but I'll try to do my best.

After an initial scanning of the posts, I'd just like to point out to Sigurd that my thirst to be a villain was properly quenched in khaan's Spirit Mafia in which I was the Puppet Master.

Let me do a thorough read of the last day or two and I'll get back to you fuller.

[Quintus.JC]

I don't see how that idea could work with over 20 people still in the game, it could be sound enough with less than 15 people at most though.

Yes its possible that the mafia would be more cautious about commiting murders, and that would be good for town.

[Askthepizzaguy]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=147

All right, let me do my discourse on your posting behavior and then I'll head over to Golden Rule to discuss what's going on there... and then I'll take some pills and do something mindless for the next three hours or so. I may have to drop out of this game; I can't really handle this multi-thread thing.

He "may drop out of the game" because he "cant really handle this multithread thing"

He's the man who single handedly brought mafia to the org, if I am not mistaken, and organized and hosted some of the biggest mafia games of the org, while keeping tabs on results and writeups and revealing inside information afterwards... How many games is he in right now? One of the games is basically almost over and there's not much else to do.

I don't buy it. I don't know what his defense is, but I think I'm already prejudiced against it.

You guys are going to need to restrain me and duct tape my mouth and fingers.

Let the man have a rebuttal... let the man have a rebuttal...

[TinCow]

In GH's defense, I personally know that he has been extremely busy for the last several months due to starting college. He has had to drop out of playing an active avatar in LotR as a result, and I've seen a marked reduction in his activity on the Org in general. That doesn't clear him of anything, but IMHO, if he says he's really busy, then he is really busy.

[GeneralHankerchief]

All right, it's hurricane time. I'm going to split my post into two parts, one of them being my defense and the other being my comments on what's been going on in the game.

For my defense, ATPG, I'm mostly going to pick on your post, since it serves what I want to say.

You note my previous contributions to the .Org and the Gameroom in particular and you compare my current activity to them, pointing out the difference:

He's the man who single handedly brought mafia to the org, if I am not mistaken, and organized and hosted some of the biggest mafia games of the org, while keeping tabs on results and writeups and revealing inside information afterwards... How many games is he in right now? One of the games is basically almost over and there's not much else to do.

Clearly, you've done some homework and read my past games. However, this paints an improper picture. If you really want to analyze the trends, what you need to do is read each and every single one of my 5,000+ posts, especially analyzing the dates over a broad range of time. Naturally, I don't blame you for doing this. Heck, I know I wouldn't do this with anybody else. However, when it comes to discussing my greater activity as a whole I can do it since I've, you know, lived it.

I brought Mafia to the .Org in June 2006, which was abotu two and a half years ago. In 2006 alone, I hosted five of my eight big games, providing a commentary on each. This was done over the period of half a year, mind. In 2007, I only hosted two big games, and only provided a commentary in one of them. Now, part of this was due to the increasing popularity of the Gameroom, but also keep in mind I had double the time and still only hosted two games. In addition, the "Gameroom got bigger" explanation doesn't properly explain my lack of commentary for Mafia VII. Now, in 2008, I only hosted one large game, Mafia VIII. This was done, for the most part, over the summer, when I did not have school to worry about and only worked a small, part-time job.

In addition to my hosting less, I've also played less. TinCow already pointed out my essential bowing out of LotR recently. But in the past year and a half I've also taken two extended breaks from Mafia, not playing a single game for months at a time. Now, it's probably true that I've played multiple games in the past. However, if I have, I certainly haven't done so for a long time. Comparing my 2009 data from my 2006 and early 2007 data only while leaving out my mid/late 2007 and 2008 data is folly. This is a significant jump in activity for me, relatively speaking. And while I'm trying to become more active in the Gameroom and make this new behavior the norm, I'm not sure if I can pull it off. My desire to join this game in the first place was out of a desire to play a "big" game (even among Large games) again. I'm naturally partial to khaan's Chicago Soiree, because, hey, that style of game is my specialty.

Now, as far as my actual behavior (and not lack, thereof) goes:

First of all, just as a general point, much of your attacks on me come from my past behavior. Let me just say that if you don't think I naturally and purposely evolve my behavior/tactics, shame on you. It's good overall play to do this. Otherwise, you stand at risk of becoming like Seamus and Kommodus, who, while excellent townies, are as predictable as the sunrise and stand out like a sore thumb when they become mafia.

I was thinking that you weren't acting scummy, but not after this statement. Hurts, doesn't it?

You say this is scummy but don't give an explanation.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=266


Interesting you are so sure, at such an early juncture, about our path forward and who we should lynch.

I know this goes against my previous statement, but I've always argued this path. When you have two polar opposite targets in a situation so ambiguous, you take them both down just to be certain you got the right person. I believe I was one of the first to push for this in Cosa Nuova I, when Sasaki and Kagemusha counterclaimed each other as Detective in the first round. In my mind, you can't beat the brute-force approach, especially early in the game. Efficient? Not really. Effective? Yes.

Argumentative. Point by point responses. Would it surprise you to know Sasaki exhibits such behavior as mafia? Most veteran players that I know do, and I've analyzed their behavior.

Would it surprise you to know that good players do this as town too? Sasaki destroyed me in Godfather 2 using argumentative behavior and point-by-point responses trying to poke holes in my (false) claim as Detective.

Turning into PK? PrivateerKev was mafia in the last game, as I recall.

I wasn't referring to PK in Taormina, I was referring to him in Midgard when he was criticizing for me trying to Holmgang people, saying that my pursuit of fun (similar to Reenk's in this game) was detrimental to the town and that I should stop.

At such an early juncture, it's easy to ask someone "why shouldn't you be lynched?"... it could be townie behavior, but maybe you simply wanted to know what his hidden role was. He obviously had one. He smells like a townie, too, in retrospect.

How in God's name did it look like he had a pro-town role? All he was doing at the time was singularly focusing discussion on him (bad, since it lets the mafia slip by under the radar) and mocking us all. This was not good town behavior. Yes, it looks now that he was pretty much a townie. However, hindsight is 20/20. Find me ONE PERSON who thought this way before he got lynched. Everybody thought he had some special role, good or bad. I thought bad. This point of yours makes no sense.

GH abstains. You know, he abstains when he's mafia too. And why would you abstain past the first round or so? Nice excuse for not being here. (Hey, maybe it's real, I don't know, and I'm the last person who can safely accuse you... but still. I have to.)

As pointed out in that post, I was going back to school and thus my mind was elsewhere than on the game. Considering that I missed the vote in the last round, I didn't want to become WoG-bait.

~~~~~~~~~~~

I was going to finish my post with something besides a defense, but I need to be off and doing something else now. I hope people actually read it and consider the points I made.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The blow-by-blow defense was expected, and didn't really counter much of my claims, if you look closely.

He basically argues that I'd need to analyze all his 5000 posts in order to recognize patterns of behavior. I don't... because none of you have done this, and neither has he, and we still recognize those patterns.

He then goes into a long explanation for his declining activity and renewed interest in mafia. That's fine, but the Chicago Soiree hasn't even started yet and the total activity in the Golden Rule mafia is negligible at this stage of the game. You just show up, vote, and you're done. Same as last round, or slightly less work, not more.

He never once explains how this thread is a significant burden to him or why he cannot handle it in conjunction with the limited, if any, activity in other games. Which is fine, that alone doesn't make him mafia, nor does anything else I've said.

What I've said is that it LIKELY makes him mafia.

Then he suggests his behavior has evolved. Good! Mine has as well. However, he's arguing against himself here, because he's the one who suggested examining past behavior in this very thread.

Which is it? Is it reliable or not? If it's not reliable, could it contain some key information?

It basically comes down to a judgment call. In my judgment, you made a mistake and revealed that you are hiding a secret.

The part with the clown is a joke. But it shows you declaring how guilty someone is for their behavior, with the finality that perhaps wasn't deserved. I intended to highlight that by turning your argument on you.

I was thinking that you weren't acting scummy, but not after this statement

You have been final in your judgments and quick to make them. Different style of play? Sloppy? Or mafia behavior?


_______________

I've relaxed and done other things, I feel I have a clearer head. From where I sit, your defense has not convinced me.

If I am wrong, I apologize, but there was not enough there to overturn or satisfy my suspicions.

[shlin28]

About this old man thing... he told me a boring story too and I fell asleep

At first I thought it was a mafia trying to convert me, but after reading the write-ups I seem only to be blocked YAY!

I'm still voting GH though after reading the thread thoroughly this time. In ATPG I trust

[Askthepizzaguy]

Be sure to read GH's rebuttal and my counter-argument before you make up your mind. I don't want to be the sole person who put any thought into his death. Some of you have considered it carefully and decided he's guilty, which is fine. Just give GH a fair hearing, as I would hope you would do for me if I ever got accused.

[GeneralHankerchief]

The blow-by-blow defense was expected, and didn't really counter much of my claims, if you look closely.

He basically argues that I'd need to analyze all his 5000 posts in order to recognize patterns of behavior. I don't... because none of you have done this, and neither has he, and we still recognize those patterns.

No you don't, because you attacked my activity level and it required an explanation from me.

He never once explains how this thread is a significant burden to him or why he cannot handle it in conjunction with the limited, if any, activity in other games. Which is fine, that alone doesn't make him mafia, nor does anything else I've said.

Just showing up and voting is very very very bad for the town. You need to show up, read the thread, and make an informed vote. I don't like to do anything less than that. Since this game is high activity and since I'm having trouble keeping up, THAT'S what's keeping me less active.

Then he suggests his behavior has evolved. Good! Mine has as well. However, he's arguing against himself here, because he's the one who suggested examining past behavior in this very thread.

You yourself said that most of the arguments used against me could also be used against you, but you didn't care. I did this once or twice and now you call me out on it. So hypocrisy's only okay when you do it?

Which is it? Is it reliable or not? If it's not reliable, could it contain some key information?

It basically comes down to a judgment call. In my judgment, you made a mistake and revealed that you are hiding a secret.

What?

The part with the clown is a joke. But it shows you declaring how guilty someone is for their behavior, with the finality that perhaps wasn't deserved. I intended to highlight that by turning your argument on you.

Reenk's behavior was actively detrimental to the town. My behavior on the other hand wasn't much of anything.

If I am wrong, I apologize, but there was not enough there to overturn or satisfy my suspicions.

You are, as your user title puts it, "wrong on so many levels", as you will find out.

[seireikhaan]

Here's my question, Pizzaguy: Why did you initially target GH instead of, say, me? Or Rythmic? Or any of the other players who are lurking their way through this game thus far? By the same logic you apply to GH, there should be roughly 12 mafioso in this game.

Vote: Pizzaguy

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Here's my question, Pizzaguy: Why did you initially target GH instead of, say, me? Or Rythmic? Or any of the other players who are lurking their way through this game thus far? By the same logic you apply to GH, there should be roughly 12 mafioso in this game.

Vote: Pizzaguy

In that case I have to lynch all those 12 people at once..

Gah! A lot of work lies ahead...

[TinCow]

I recommend not lynching GH this round. It seems my list of lurking vets got this ball rolling on him. I posted that list because I wanted to get those people talking, not necessarily lynch them just for lurking. Talkative veteran players are very beneficial if they are on the town's side. Let's not go eliminating them just for the hell of it. GH is talking now, and that was the objective. Switch your votes to someone else to provoke a similar response.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Here's my question, Pizzaguy: Why did you initially target GH instead of, say, me? Or Rythmic? Or any of the other players who are lurking their way through this game thus far? By the same logic you apply to GH, there should be roughly 12 mafioso in this game.

Vote: Pizzaguy

I know you didn't post this without reading my posts, so I assume you know that I started with the least active townies and began tracking their activity and their posting behavior so far. When I got to GeneralHankerchief I was startled by the results.

You do not have such odd behaviors in your posts. Neither did Rythmic. Rythmic simply is rather inactive and is WOG bait. He has one post.

GH is not guilty of Lurking. He's guilty of making odd posts which indicate something is awry. He's posting arguments which make no sense to me. His behavior is identical to other games where he's been mafia, in my opinion, and also identical to many veteran player's behavior when they aren't townie.

That is my assessment and you are free to disagree. However, there is a significant difference between GH and Rythmic, and GH and Seireikhaan, and you would know that, if you read my posts and theirs. You should know that. Why don't you?

And yes, I freely admit some of this stuff applies to me. Go ahead and lynch me. I'd prefer to let the mafia strike me dead, but having a me as a suspect and still alive may make them refuse. You'll lynch me eventually, it can be now if you wish. However, I will not give a blow-by-blow defense of myself. I am simply looking for suspect behavior, and I'm aware mine qualifies, and I'll continue my efforts after I am dead.

That GH would give a blow-by-blow defense is interesting in and of itself, but it is more typical behavior from him. That his defense had holes in it was more interesting.

I have answered your question, and unless you have something more substantial on me, I encourage you to either change your vote or give me further reasons why you think I am mafia. I'd prefer you re-examine my arguments as well, because I believe several people thought they had merit, and you just rejected them out of hand. Why?

[Askthepizzaguy]

You are, as your user title puts it, "wrong on so many levels", as you will find out.

Aha!

Now everything before that was expected. Here this was unexpected.

This is sharply more aggressive than one would expect from an accused. This comment does not sit well with me either. If I am so wrong, it is not necessary to post this. It is necessary to show me why I am wrong. To post this, is more or less a taunt, and less professional behavior than I am used to from GH.

I would suggest this is a crack in your facade, GH. You didn't handle my accusation well, in my opinion.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Okay, fine. I didn't want to do this, but this is more out of a sick pleasure to prove you wrong:

The Guide

You are the guide, mentioned in the opening scene.

You have a perfect knowledge of the Ancient City of Ephesus.

Each night, you are allowed to protect two players. When you do so, you’ll hide them in the secret tunnel between the ancient library and the ancient brothel. When you protect a player, you’ll also block his/her actions for that night.

Each night, you have to pm me the names of the people you’re going to protect. Your pm has to reach me before the night ends.

Assination attempts on you might fail under certain circumstances.

Good luck!

You wake Sigurd an Quintus up and take them with you, to a secret hiding place.

You bore them with stories about Ephesus until they fall asleep.

Andres.

You took Tevash and Reenk with you, to the secret corridor.

You started to tell them about Ancient Rome and the history of Turkey.

Both were so bored by your talking that they fell asleep.

However, somehow you felt like someone else had been watching you. Maybe it's just paranoia, maybe it's something more...

Be careful, Guide...

Andres.

Question: How apparent is it that I've taken people to the secret corridor? (i.e. will the blocked/protected know that they have been blocked/protected?) Also, if anybody tries to kill them will it show up in the thread? I'm guessing it will here since it looks like one of us got investigated the last night, but... PM is not the thread.

Thanks,
GH

You took Tevash and Reenk with you, to the secret corridor.

You started to tell them about Ancient Rome and the history of Turkey.

Both were so bored by your talking that they fell asleep.

However, somehow you felt like someone else had been watching you. Maybe it's just paranoia, maybe it's something more...

Be careful, Guide...

Andres.

Failed attacks will be narrated in the thread.

Role blocks won't be narrated in the thread nor in your night report.

Some role(s) can watch you or the people you are protecting/blocking. Your night report may hint at that, but nothing more then that.

You took Seamus Fermanagh and shlin28 with you, to the secret corridor.

When you woke up Seamus, you noticed somebody watching him. You don't know what to make of it. Maybe you're just getting paranoid.

Anyway, you took them with you, to the secret place.

You started to tell them about Ancient Rome and the history of Turkey.

Both were so bored by your talking that they fell asleep.


Andres.

Your theories need work. Now change your vote.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Let's hear about the statue please -- history etc.


I like this argument that GH and Pizza have going. My read is that both are townies -- though I will reserve judgement for now and

VOTE: Abstain


YLC -- you implied some form of active role beyond that of voting to lynch. Could you discuss this more? If you're trying to duck mafia attention, you're too late as you made your post and it has already drawn two comments since.


Pizza:

Who was it that said they were off weekends but was on and posting? My previous posts queue at the bottom of this reply doesn't go back that far.



I am posting less this game. My personal life (RL) responsibilities have grown recently -- though I do not wish to go into specifics. If you pm Andres, Kukrikhan or Sigurd they will confirm that fact.


Voting analysis seems to show a lot of people voting for Tev who end up dead.....


I still think we've something to learn from the kill methodology. I do not suspect rival families -- though I can't fully discount it -- and do suspect some kind of quasi-townie role for the knifeman.