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Thread: Just thought i would clarify this.

  1. #1
    Member Member fenir's Avatar
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    Default Just thought i would clarify this.

    Now i was perusing the above stickies, and as i was freshing my memory of goodness to come....


    I found this,



    Strictly speaking Ireland was never part of Great Britain. The term "Great Britain" refers to the main island of the British Isles, consisting of England, Wales and Scotland; the official name of the UK is the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". The term "Britain", meanwhile, refers only to England and Wales. If it seems confusing, don't worry, many British people get it wrong too, using the terms "UK", "Great Britain", "Britain" interchangeably even though they are all technically different entities. Occasionally people do even simply use "England" as a catch-all term to refer to the whole of the UK, which really winds up the Scots and Welsh.

    I believe at the time the game starts Ireland was essentially a British colony like any other, rather than an integral part of the UK; Ireland only became officially part of the UK due to the Act of Union in 1801 and remained part of the Union until Irish independance in 1922. I'm not sure if and how the Acts of Union with Ireland and Scotland will be portrayed in game; the Scottish Act of Union was in 1707, just after the game starts, so I imagine it will be in in some form.

    I do wonder, actually, whether there will be any distinction between land that is part of your actual nation and colonies/conquered territory? It would be a bit odd if the population of India were able to vote in British elections, for example (not that most of the population of Britain were able to vote at this point either). Would it be possible for me to pass an Act of Union with the American colonies, for example, forestalling an outright revolution and granting the colonists representation in Parliament in return? I am very interested to see how government and ministers will work in Empire.
    At first i thought i would leave it. But then, i realised, all it takes for chaos to rein, is one good man to stand idle. So i applied myself to the task at hand.


    Sooo.


    At the game start.

    Ireland is an equal nation within "The United Kingdom of Great Britian and Ireland", (UK). Which was the offical name of the Empire and Country.
    In fact their was No, "British Empire". No such declaration was made.
    However, in 1533AD, King Henry VIII, declared England to be an Empire.

    Now the Offical Names That make up the UK.

    The Kingdom of England.
    The Kingdom of Scotland.
    The Kingdom of Ireland.

    All three Crowns having been held by the Monarch. I won't go into how this came about, as this is outside our scope.
    English King became King of Ireland, in 1169AD.
    Scottish king, became King of England in 1603AD. As well as King of Ireland 1603AD.



    Now,

    The Kingdom of England.
    The Kingdom of Scotland.

    Are on an Island called, Great Britian. IN the Iles Britannica, or British Iles. Yes the name is Roman.
    The little Britian island, is Called modern, Eire. It's orginally recorded name is Hibernea.

    Together they make up the UK, and ireland. Or more corretly, The Britiah Iles main Islands.

    Now most will say hey you forgot Wales. Umm no, wales was never a country, and still is not today.
    Infact wales has been an English province for over 1000 years. While the Actual celtic tribes having been killed off many of hundreds of years previous.
    .
    But this is it's legal status. ANd has been part of England, even in roman times.

    Ireland at game start is not a Colony. it is a Kingdom in Close personal Union, with England and Scotland. This is why Lords in Ireland, if not Catholic, sat in the house of lords. and Could be in the Westminster parliment. Now this has a lot of complexities to it, that also i won't go into, because it will bore most of you to tears.

    Now the Act of Union.
    In 1603 After the death of Queen Elizabeth I. King James the I of Great Britian became King.
    That is, King james the VI of Scotland, as being a relative of Elizabeth.

    At this time, very little was done to formalise this state of affairs.

    However, in 1706 and 1707, acts of parliment in Scotland and England, where passed by vote to formalise the act of union between England and Scotland.

    And thereby becoming The United Kingdoms of England and Scotland, to the Untied Kingdom of Great Britian.

    Now in 1169AD, the Irish King and formost families of Ireland, offered the Crown of ireland to the English Monarch. In such, to unite the Iles under one leader, and thereby protect trade et cetera....
    Another long story.


    Anyway.


    IN 1707 Union, the two parliments where done away with, and one parilment in London became the thing.

    However, alot was done over the past 100 years to bring Scotland and England together.


    Now in 1801 A formal Act of Union was enacted to bring Ireland Premantly into the the United Kingdoms. On an equal Footing. ANd thereby dissolving the Irsh Parliment in Dublin. Which was more like a Regional Board.

    This would in effect, have given equal sharing, and a single parliment to All the English, Irish and Scottish.

    But due to weakness, stupidity, Ireland went it's own way. ANd the story goes on, but we won't go into that.


    So effectivly, England and SCotland, should be represented with one government, or two combining, but one country.
    Ireland would also be in union with them as it was a kingdom with England and Scotland.

    So pretty much how we have seen it in MTW. and MTW2. Late period Middle ages.


    Actual correct name for all This, is The United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland. Or the UK.
    And Republic of Ireland.

    The Union of England and Scotland, is consider to be the Best example in the world. Simply, beause it was a union of equals.


    Hope this helps clarify.

    Sincerely

    fenir
    Last edited by fenir; 01-08-2009 at 03:22.
    Time is but a basis for measuring Susscess. Fenir Nov 2002.

    Mr R.T.Smith > So you going to Charge in the Brisbane Office with your knights?.....then what?
    fenir > hmmmm .....Kill them, kill them all.......let sega sort them out.

    Well thats it, 6 years at university, 2 degrees and 1 post grad diploma later OMG! I am so Anal!
    I should have been a proctologist! Not an Accountant......hmmmmm maybe some cross over there?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    Just admit it: You don't get it either!

  3. #3
    Member Member Sol Invictus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    Good man.
    "The fruit of too much liberty is slavery", Cicero

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    Member Megas Methuselah's Avatar
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    Question Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    Quote Originally Posted by fenir
    While the Actual celtic tribes having been killed off many of hundreds of years previous.
    Really?!

  5. #5
    Member Member fenir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    Yes, not a single celtic tribe left now. You obviously believe different? Where is there a celtic tribe?

    Sincerely

    fenir
    Time is but a basis for measuring Susscess. Fenir Nov 2002.

    Mr R.T.Smith > So you going to Charge in the Brisbane Office with your knights?.....then what?
    fenir > hmmmm .....Kill them, kill them all.......let sega sort them out.

    Well thats it, 6 years at university, 2 degrees and 1 post grad diploma later OMG! I am so Anal!
    I should have been a proctologist! Not an Accountant......hmmmmm maybe some cross over there?

  6. #6
    Member Megas Methuselah's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    I'm not contradicting you, friend!

    I just want to know why.

  7. #7
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    While I appreciate what you're trying to do fenir, this thread would better belong in the Monastery.
    "MTW is not a game, it's a way of life." -- drone

  8. #8
    Member Member fenir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    Martok,

    Only setting the mose for the game start as regards to the British Empire.


    Methuselah,

    cc, well all the tribes have been superceded by large entities. ie: Nations.




    Sincerely

    fenir
    Time is but a basis for measuring Susscess. Fenir Nov 2002.

    Mr R.T.Smith > So you going to Charge in the Brisbane Office with your knights?.....then what?
    fenir > hmmmm .....Kill them, kill them all.......let sega sort them out.

    Well thats it, 6 years at university, 2 degrees and 1 post grad diploma later OMG! I am so Anal!
    I should have been a proctologist! Not an Accountant......hmmmmm maybe some cross over there?

  9. #9
    Member Member PBI's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    Thanks for the clarification regarding the status of Ireland, you are quite correct of course, Ireland was in personal union with England and Scotland. You are quite correct that it is misleading to describe Ireland as a British colony, I believe what I was trying to get at is essentially what you said, that the three kingdoms were in personal union but that this status was not formalized until the Acts of Union.

    But would you agree with my first paragraph, regarding the names of the various countries and geographical entities of the British Isles?

    Also, although it's certainly true that Wales was never a kingdom and historically has long been a province of England, I'd say it requires a bit of a narrow definition of what constitutes a country to say that Wales is not and never has been one. Certainly in common usage, if you use the term "England", most English and Welsh people will understand it to mean England excluding Wales. Hence we have a "Wales vs England" rugby match rather than "Wales vs the rest of England".

  10. #10
    The Laughing Knight Member Sir Beane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    I was under the impression that Wales is indeed a country, but is not recognised as a State.

    After all it has its own official boundaries, it has its own language (which is afforded equal status with English, i.e double language road signs) and it has quite a strong national identity with quite a unique culture.

    Indeed, if you told a Welshman that his homeland is not a country, and that he is instead legally 'English', the best response you will get is probably a string of carefully chosen swear words.

    Also the celtic tribes were not compeltely wiped out. If they were then the Welsh language would not exist. And then we wouldn't have the wonderfully named town of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch, and that would make many people sad. Some of the culture and quite a few of the ancestors of the celts still exist, they just aren't in charge of anything much.


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  11. #11
    Member Member Flavius Clemens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    It's potentially misleading to say Wales was part of England in Roman times as England didn't exist until the Angles arrived. Rather, at the time of the Roman occupation most of Britain was inhabited by assorted independent Ancient British tribes.

    It will be interesting to see if this thread stays 'front room' territory, the topic can easily arouse strong emotions!
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  12. #12
    Member Member fenir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    PBI,

    I sort of thought this is what you where getting at.


    WALES, itself, is not a country, by the broadest diffinition. And though out history.
    For one, only a very small part had what is termed welsh. 3/4th's of Wales province was English.
    The concept of Wales as a nation only came about due to sports. They wanted an "International"
    The fore runner of the USA calling their Baseball, "the world Series", yet only two nations play in it.
    But wales is and always has been a province of England.
    Just like Merica, Wessux, Sussex, Anglia, Northumbria, which is now divided into Lancashire and Yorkshire.


    And yes you are correct, in roman times there was no England, but England is a sucssor state to
    Britannica. Which for most part was Britianncia Inferior, and Britannica Superior.
    The Entire Southern half of Wales was a part of the Brigantes tribe, with their capital in modern Bristol.
    There territory was huge for the time. And they where/are the Nucli of the kingdom of Wessux. Which controlled all this area.
    So the south of Wales province, has never been welsh in recorded history. The Actual welsh language was limited to ( Welsh language is acutally the orginally Celtic, tough a dialect, of many others around them, including cornwall), the North West Corner of wales. So in reality occuping less than 1 1/4 of the total area.


    After all it has its own official boundaries, it has its own language (which is afforded equal status with English, i.e double language road signs) and it has quite a strong national identity with quite a unique culture
    What unique Culture? When i was there, it was no different than anywhere else in the Iles.

    I have a good friend in Wales, a Guy called Igor Davies. I meet him when he was Serving in the RN. As he says, it's all power and money, it's all shite.

    This is politics and Academia. They have a vested interest it gives them power, and gives them money. Never under esimate the power of self importance.
    It's like Australians or New Zealanders. They are in fact a vast majority anglo-celtics. They have the same language and culture.
    They both have strong national identies, but truth is, they are no different than Britian and Ireland.


    lol all this reminds me of the maxim, United we stand, Divided we fall. Polictians are the brightest things in the world.


    Sincerely

    fenir
    Last edited by fenir; 01-08-2009 at 22:55.
    Time is but a basis for measuring Susscess. Fenir Nov 2002.

    Mr R.T.Smith > So you going to Charge in the Brisbane Office with your knights?.....then what?
    fenir > hmmmm .....Kill them, kill them all.......let sega sort them out.

    Well thats it, 6 years at university, 2 degrees and 1 post grad diploma later OMG! I am so Anal!
    I should have been a proctologist! Not an Accountant......hmmmmm maybe some cross over there?

  13. #13
    Ultimate Member tibilicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    Sort of fitting in with this can any one explain why Ireland was desperate for independence from the UK decades ago yet the idea of an independent Scotland is a more recent idea. Why do people think, minus events such as the potato famine, the Irish felt independence was more important than other nations like Scotland for example.


    "A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."

  14. #14
    The Laughing Knight Member Sir Beane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    If you've been to Wales and didn't notice anything different from the rest of the UK, well, you went to the wrong part of Wales or at the wrong time. (This is assuming you were just visiting and didn't live there or something) If you ever go again try and visit some of the festivals and fetes that you get in the little villages, you'll see a culture that shares a heritage with, but is distinct from, the rest of the UK.

    To say Wales is the same as England is like saying Scotland is the same as England. If you spend enough time there, talk to the locals, go to the small places and not the big cities, visit the monuments and landmarks you'll see it that it has a rich history and culture.

    I've checked, and by several definitions Wales is a country. It's listed as a country in atlases, maps, encyclopedia etc.

    It's arguable that it's history of long English occupation means it doesn't count, but that's really more of a technicality than anything. If places like Luxembourg, Monaco, and Vatican City get to be countries then so does Wales damnit!


    @tibilicus

    The idea of an independant Scotland isn't paticularly recent. Scotland has tried and failed many times to gain its independance. There are many, many Scottish folk who detest England and would like nothing better than to have nothing to do with it at all. They just sort of gave up trying for a while.

    As for why Ireland want independance more? It probably has a lot to do with the fact that they are a seperate location. Ireland has no physical borders or ties to England, and much less of a shared heritage. I guess the Irish couldn't see any reason for England to control them.

    Another part of it is that the Irish were treated incredibly badly by England. They were mocked in newspapers at the time, with articles declaring the Irish to be an 'inferior' race prone stupidity, violence and drunkeness. Popular caricatures of the time showed the Irish as little more than neanderthals. That sort of thing rubs a country the wrong way after a while.
    Last edited by Sir Beane; 01-08-2009 at 23:46.


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  15. #15
    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    I though the Irish thing was more to do with religion, the modern day split of the political parties in ireland seems to suggest so but i would wonder how much that is influenced by time and not so much the original starting point.

    Edit missed the above post mention of bad treatment and racism, thats probably a bigger factor..

    translation of above gibberish

    IRA tends to be catholic, non independance partys tend to be protestant, if anything religion was probably just an extra factor

    To say Wales is the same as England is like saying Scotland is the same as England.

    South Wales is pretty much england, to my mind apart from imagined loyalty to thier nation and the things that come with it south wales is probably more like england than north wales. Sure we have our own little local quirks at festivals and fairs but, apart from things that have been spread as part of a national identity of wales, there is nothing that spreads across wales and makes it so different from england.

    Obviously you will have changes any distance you go, comparing the south of england to the north and you will come up with differences, this doesn't make north england its own independant nation... i think the same is true of wales

    ohh and btw with the welsh langauge is has some decently high percentages of people that speak it up in north wales but you will barely hear it down in south wales, it is infact a surprise when you meet someone who can speak welsh, i wouldn't rule out the possibility that some langauge other than welsh is the second most spoken after english (i wouldn't back it either...)
    Last edited by LittleGrizzly; 01-14-2009 at 01:39.
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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    What about the Cornish?

    Oh and Wales is a country. Like Yorkshire.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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  17. #17
    Member Member Flavius Clemens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    Oh come, come InsaneApache, Wales is a country but not like Yorkshire, there's no country quite like Yorkshire.
    Non me rogare, loquare non lingua latinus

  18. #18
    The Laughing Knight Member Sir Beane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just thought i would clarify this.

    Here here! A toast to Yorkshire, greatest of Counties.

    @LittleGrizzly

    I agree that the majority of Wales is similar to England in many ways. The same could be said of Ireland however, or Scotland. There doesn't need to be huge differences to set a place apart from a similar place.

    It is also true that Welsh isn't as common as some Welsh officials might like. It isn't doing too badly though. For a language like Welsh to be spoken at all when set up against such a dominant language as English is quite an achivement.


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