Just thought i would clarify this.

[Flavius Clemens]

It's potentially misleading to say Wales was part of England in Roman times as England didn't exist until the Angles arrived. Rather, at the time of the Roman occupation most of Britain was inhabited by assorted independent Ancient British tribes.

It will be interesting to see if this thread stays 'front room' territory, the topic can easily arouse strong emotions!

[fenir]

PBI,

I sort of thought this is what you where getting at.


WALES, itself, is not a country, by the broadest diffinition. And though out history.
For one, only a very small part had what is termed welsh. 3/4th's of Wales province was English.
The concept of Wales as a nation only came about due to sports. They wanted an "International"
The fore runner of the USA calling their Baseball, "the world Series", yet only two nations play in it.
But wales is and always has been a province of England.
Just like Merica, Wessux, Sussex, Anglia, Northumbria, which is now divided into Lancashire and Yorkshire.


And yes you are correct, in roman times there was no England, but England is a sucssor state to
Britannica. Which for most part was Britianncia Inferior, and Britannica Superior.
The Entire Southern half of Wales was a part of the Brigantes tribe, with their capital in modern Bristol.
There territory was huge for the time. And they where/are the Nucli of the kingdom of Wessux. Which controlled all this area.
So the south of Wales province, has never been welsh in recorded history. The Actual welsh language was limited to ( Welsh language is acutally the orginally Celtic, tough a dialect, of many others around them, including cornwall), the North West Corner of wales. So in reality occuping less than 1 1/4 of the total area.

After all it has its own official boundaries, it has its own language (which is afforded equal status with English, i.e double language road signs) and it has quite a strong national identity with quite a unique culture

What unique Culture? When i was there, it was no different than anywhere else in the Iles.

I have a good friend in Wales, a Guy called Igor Davies. I meet him when he was Serving in the RN. As he says, it's all power and money, it's all shite.

This is politics and Academia. They have a vested interest it gives them power, and gives them money. Never under esimate the power of self importance.
It's like Australians or New Zealanders. They are in fact a vast majority anglo-celtics. They have the same language and culture.
They both have strong national identies, but truth is, they are no different than Britian and Ireland.


lol all this reminds me of the maxim, United we stand, Divided we fall. Polictians are the brightest things in the world.


Sincerely

fenir

[tibilicus]

Sort of fitting in with this can any one explain why Ireland was desperate for independence from the UK decades ago yet the idea of an independent Scotland is a more recent idea. Why do people think, minus events such as the potato famine, the Irish felt independence was more important than other nations like Scotland for example.

[Sir Beane]

If you've been to Wales and didn't notice anything different from the rest of the UK, well, you went to the wrong part of Wales or at the wrong time. (This is assuming you were just visiting and didn't live there or something) If you ever go again try and visit some of the festivals and fetes that you get in the little villages, you'll see a culture that shares a heritage with, but is distinct from, the rest of the UK.

To say Wales is the same as England is like saying Scotland is the same as England. If you spend enough time there, talk to the locals, go to the small places and not the big cities, visit the monuments and landmarks you'll see it that it has a rich history and culture.

I've checked, and by several definitions Wales is a country. It's listed as a country in atlases, maps, encyclopedia etc.

It's arguable that it's history of long English occupation means it doesn't count, but that's really more of a technicality than anything. If places like Luxembourg, Monaco, and Vatican City get to be countries then so does Wales damnit!


@tibilicus

The idea of an independant Scotland isn't paticularly recent. Scotland has tried and failed many times to gain its independance. There are many, many Scottish folk who detest England and would like nothing better than to have nothing to do with it at all. They just sort of gave up trying for a while.

As for why Ireland want independance more? It probably has a lot to do with the fact that they are a seperate location. Ireland has no physical borders or ties to England, and much less of a shared heritage. I guess the Irish couldn't see any reason for England to control them.

Another part of it is that the Irish were treated incredibly badly by England. They were mocked in newspapers at the time, with articles declaring the Irish to be an 'inferior' race prone stupidity, violence and drunkeness. Popular caricatures of the time showed the Irish as little more than neanderthals. That sort of thing rubs a country the wrong way after a while.

[LittleGrizzly]

I though the Irish thing was more to do with religion, the modern day split of the political parties in ireland seems to suggest so but i would wonder how much that is influenced by time and not so much the original starting point.

Edit missed the above post mention of bad treatment and racism, thats probably a bigger factor..

translation of above gibberish

IRA tends to be catholic, non independance partys tend to be protestant, if anything religion was probably just an extra factor

To say Wales is the same as England is like saying Scotland is the same as England.

South Wales is pretty much england, to my mind apart from imagined loyalty to thier nation and the things that come with it south wales is probably more like england than north wales. Sure we have our own little local quirks at festivals and fairs but, apart from things that have been spread as part of a national identity of wales, there is nothing that spreads across wales and makes it so different from england.

Obviously you will have changes any distance you go, comparing the south of england to the north and you will come up with differences, this doesn't make north england its own independant nation... i think the same is true of wales

ohh and btw with the welsh langauge is has some decently high percentages of people that speak it up in north wales but you will barely hear it down in south wales, it is infact a surprise when you meet someone who can speak welsh, i wouldn't rule out the possibility that some langauge other than welsh is the second most spoken after english (i wouldn't back it either...)

[InsaneApache]

What about the Cornish?

Oh and Wales is a country. Like Yorkshire.

[Flavius Clemens]

Oh come, come InsaneApache, Wales is a country but not like Yorkshire, there's no country quite like Yorkshire.