My Economic Recession

[JKLeibrandt]

I cannot for the life of me, figure out why I can never make any decent money when playing my Campaigns as the Romani Or Avernii, I like having good troops instead of stupid levies so is that my issue? I know there must be a secret to a good economy in this game, but Im clueless.It just seems like the AI always has a load of great troops, but when I try to get a stack of principes with some cavalry it then takes me 20 turns to save enough to upgrade a farm or something like that, is that normal, or am I slowly getting dumber from trying too hard and smashing my head on my desk becasue I hate using money codes?.............

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

The AI gets scripted money, so that is why they never seem to suffer.

There are many guides out there telling of how to make money, though I'm sure somebody will post their advice here soon...

[Mjolnir]

Could you post some screenshots of your financial ledger, armies, etc.

[JKLeibrandt]

I wish I could I just aint played in a while and Im getting a new computer so I figured I would brush up and try to get my head in the game but one of the things I remember was having such a hard time finacially. I am installing the game on Friday so I can get some by then

[Mjolnir]

Well there's the basic stuff like, 1) concentrate on building and upgrading roads, mines, ports, and farms to increase income, 2) keep your taxes as high as possible, 3) use low upkeep units to garrison cities, 4) keep a close eye on your troop upkeep and stop building troops while it gets too high relative to your income, and 5) continually taking and enslaving cities really helps.

Follow the above and you shouldn't have any problems with money especially with Rome, Carthage, or one of the Hellenistic factions. But if you're still having problems come back here with screenshots and we'd be happy to give more specific advice. Your economy is much more important and tricky in EB then in vanilla RTW, but I think it makes EB that much more fun and realistic.

[JKLeibrandt]

Thats totally right, I love EB, you guys did an amazing job. I will definantly have to foces on cheaper units for my garrison now that I think of it that might have been my issue. I just hate fighting battles with cheap units it drives me nuts, but I guess if I want the historical experiance thats what I will have to do.... Plus the fun level of two armies of Gaesatae and Cohorts Reformata going at it is much more enjoyable than Lugoae and Polybian Hastati slowly nipping at each other...... or maybe thats just me.....

[Subotan]

Historically, pre-renaissance, the government did not interfere with the economy at any meaningful level, beyond tariffs and taxes, and the odd land reform. This was because
A. The various economic schools had not been developed, and there was no alternative to decentralisation
B. There seemed to be no need to interfere, as the system appeared to work fine, today's industrialised economies, with vastly higher levels of production and efficiency, were not around at that time, and the people were happy.
C. The concept of the state providing services was totally unknown. The first instance of what we might recognise as social democracy was the Islamic Caliphate, Zakat, but as modern medicine and technology was not present, this was of limited impact.

So therefore, EB making the government provide all these services (School/Blacksmith/Healer etc) is historically inaccurate, as the state wouldn't give a rat's ass about the infrastructure of the country, except in the case where the millitary would need to use those services (E.g. Roads). Ofc, the local cities/towns might decide "Let's build an aqueduct", but there was very rarely any state intervention, with money being collected into the treasury almost never finding it's way back into the hands of the poor.

This gives me an idea for a mod; Oeconomia Barbarorum! An Economically accurate modification of Rome: Total War!

[JKLeibrandt]

That makes perfect sense, however I know that many of the german tribal warriors were responsible for a majority of their own food on campaign and supplied most of their own weapons and armor out of there own coffers, It just seems odd that the upkeep costs of many of the Barbarian units are so high, despite the fact they were mostly self sufficient unlike the locally garrisoned Roman counterparts, Its just hard to come up with the hordes of "Wild Barbarians" that I like to use to swarm the Roman Cohorts, I still enjoy the game but I guess I need to brush up on my economic gaming instead of giving myself so many "Economic Stimuli..cough...cough" haha thank you for your post is was very informative

[Maion Maroneios]

Ah, so you have difficulties making money eh? Well, there are several things you can do about that. As the Romani, making money is about the easiest thing you can do. Just follow these simple, yet very effective ways of beoming filthy, filthy rich:

1) Use good governors in your cities. Good governors (with appropriate traits and management points) always help you make even more money in settlements.
2) Set taxes as high as possible (I personally allow my cities to have a 'yellow face' for public order maximum)
3) Set building priorities. Prefer markets, ports and income boosting temples whenever available. Or just any other economic building, like mines. Especially mines
4) When out conquering, make sure you chose targets that are going to make you richer. So areas like Iberia (good mines) and Hellas (good trade plus mines) will make you very rich.
5) Use as small garrisons as possible in cities that are not directly threatened by your neighbouring factions.
6) When having a peaceful time (quite rare, but happens), disband as many troops as you deem fit and see your incomes hit the skies.

That's all I can think of ight now. Follow these simple steps and your coffers shall swell with hundreds of thousand of mnai in no time. Plus, you'll earn the right to become a member of the filthy rich EB players

Maion

[Watchman]

So therefore, EB making the government provide all these services (School/Blacksmith/Healer etc) is historically inaccurate, as the state wouldn't give a rat's ass about the infrastructure of the country, except in the case where the millitary would need to use those services (E.g. Roads). Ofc, the local cities/towns might decide "Let's build an aqueduct", but there was very rarely any state intervention, with money being collected into the treasury almost never finding it's way back into the hands of the poor.

I would argue this is a somewhat excessively literalistic take on how the in-game building system works - nevermind now that the more centrally organised realms in fact did consciously and specifically invest heavily in various aspects of the infrastructure, be it building roads, expanding temples and their associated structures and institutions, actively encouraging the production of quality war gear (didn't Rome at least under the Republic persistently try to ensure arms production met various standards of quality and quantity...?), making all the complicated arrangements to supply the naval arsenals with the necessities for building larger and more sophisticated warships, et multiple cetera.

In the case of the less centralised societies things of course get rather a bit more abstract, and are better thought of as more "grassroots" level "resource allocation" for diverse ends by the varied inhabitants, petty nobles etc. of the province(s) concerned, say the local merchants and their patrons seeking to expand the scale and scope of their operations or whatever.

[JKLeibrandt]

Thanks everyone for the information, it will be put to good use, and I pray the Flying Spaghetti Monster chooses to spare my pathetic insignificant existance, however, I do have a pirate outfit, so hopefully I am in his fair graces........ oh, is there any specific way to increase the management efficiancy of certain governers like keeping them in a city with good schools or something...?

[von_neurath]

I dare give some pieces of advice, which I took a long time ago from the EB community, in what concerns Romani expansion, besides the ones already given:
1. in the beginning, I only maintain the 2 consular armies which I rebuild each time they suffer from casualties of war.( I know, it is time consuming when far away from home but, till you get back to your cities, the economy is relaxed by lesser troops around).
2. I pick on easy targets, and only attack Taras when its troops are shipped back on the mainland. Then easily I make peace with Epeiros having a stable trade partner in Adriatic Sea
3. Besides Hispanic mines, the most accessible are the ones on the Illyrian coast. They can give you sometimes more than 10000 minai, in time. Of course, you have to protect them from Epeiros and Makedonia but it is cheaper to retrain and reinforce by sea the garrisons in Illyria than going all the way to Iberian peninsula and losing on the way good troops in Eleutheroi, Gaul, Lusotan or Carthaginian skirmishing.
4. Don't invest too much in troops. Historically, the Romans didn't have too many armies at the same time, and they only organize them on necessity. Roman cavalry usually sucks and too many triaries are expensive and can be easily brake by some of other factions elite troops. It is better to read the presentation of the main troops a faction has (on EB site) before you launch an attack on it. Therefore, maybe you don't need cavalry(on sieges and in woods) or heavy infantry (especially in the desert) too much, and your costs are kept low.
5. I prefer playing sieges more than open battles because: a. infantry is the key to victory; b. sometimes is cheaper for my troops, especially after spying on the cities; c. you can kill everyone inside(they cannot run away), so the adversary is crippled for at least a short period of time and it does not have the time to reinforce.(and in any case, AI is pretty dumb).

[JKLeibrandt]

thats makes alot of sense, I have some learning up to do haha usually I use the money code cause everytime I try on the difficulty settings I get run over in the first two or 3 hours, so It will be a process for me I guess, I get my new computer tomorrow.....yessssssssssssssss, then the slaughter will begin.....muahahahahahahahahaha

[TheStranger]

Oh and to all things mentioned above, use your diplomats and let trade rights granted with every nation you meet.

[phonicsmonkey]

A couple of people here have stated that taxes should be set as high as possible.

Could you please elaborate on why that is?

I had thought that the extra population growth from low taxes would provide a larger tax base over time which, combined with the savings from not having to support so many garrisons or build so many happiness buildings, would work out better in the long run than any short-term boost to income from high taxes.

[Ignopotens]

personally, I have my taxes as high as possible while allowing some growth, or in some cases, no growth, if the city is already quite large.

in all cases I try to avoid population loss

[Yyrkoon]

A couple of people here have stated that taxes should be set as high as possible.

Could you please elaborate on why that is?

I had thought that the extra population growth from low taxes would provide a larger tax base over time which, combined with the savings from not having to support so many garrisons or build so many happiness buildings, would work out better in the long run than any short-term boost to income from high taxes.

Yeah look. That's pseudo-Miltonian economics. It doesn't work. You get more money out of higher taxes and lower population growth. Besides, population will almost invariably grow anyway and you never want population to be much higher than the minimum for your biggest settlement size. So a Huge City shouldn't have much more than 24000 people, etc. Otherwise you get unrest, sanitation issues. It's a pain in the ass. You get more money from farms, trade, and mines. Besides, a happy population can be taxed more!

[phonicsmonkey]

Yeah look. That's pseudo-Miltonian economics. It doesn't work. You get more money out of higher taxes and lower population growth.

It depends, I guess, on (a) how much of a boost to income you get by raising taxes, vs (b) how much of a decline in population growth you experience as a result.

Besides, population will almost invariably grow anyway and you never want population to be much higher than the minimum for your biggest settlement size. So a Huge City shouldn't have much more than 24000 people, etc. Otherwise you get unrest, sanitation issues.

I concede that there might be reasons for wanting to limit population growth (like unrest, sanitation etc.), but at certain levels of (a) and (b) there may be a case for keeping taxes low in the early game before raising them later to keep populations at the desired level.

I'd be interested to know whether anyone has ever actually tested this. If I ever find the time I might do so myself and post back here with the results.

Of course, someone with an intimate knowledge of the game mechanics might post here to say exactly why I'm wrong, and it would save me some time if they did so..

[antisocialmunky]

My house rules for taxing go:

Normal if you're secure.
High if you're in a major war for survival.(Begining of the Game)
Very High only if you're going to die horribly.(Hai/Parthia)

I think that in a normal game you usually should set taxes as high as you can while still getting growth(0.5). You might lower in the mid-game to keep your FMs from getting horribly corrupt though.

[Vulg]

When starting out as Romani I can just about purchase half a stack of troops, principles etc. I would then occupy all of italy and get a mine in the south built up and concentrate on getting that stack beefed up. Then head towards greece and take a few costal areas of Epeiros as that area including just north of Greece is a money haven for mines as is spain. Focus on plugging stacks near enemy borders but don't overstack. Eventually your main plug points for need armies will be around Byzantium and Greece as well as northern Italy and maybe one along the Germanic borders. Any extra stacks can be used for working on North Africa, attack from Southern Spain and Sicily and work across.

I think at the moment I can only afford 6-7 solid stacks of Principles and mainland Italy troops for defence. Mine located territories are useful for Romani they are in Spain, Greece, one in Southern Italy and one in north Africa.

Max these areas out and then the money will flow in :)

PS If you solve this financial crisis problem, email your thoughts to the heads of the world banks ;)

[Mooks]

Thanks everyone for the information, it will be put to good use, and I pray the Flying Spaghetti Monster chooses to spare my pathetic insignificant existance, however, I do have a pirate outfit, so hopefully I am in his fair graces........ oh, is there any specific way to increase the management efficiancy of certain governers like keeping them in a city with good schools or something...?

Yes, it helps massively in the long run to build a major school in Rome to train governors up till theyre 23 or something. Gives them pretty good retinues. In my Carthrage game right now (VH/H) every governor I have has a massive retinues that increase tax/trade massively.

I even believe in this so much I build schools in all of my main provinces. They pay for themselves.

[phonicsmonkey]

PS If you solve this financial crisis problem, email your thoughts to the heads of the world banks ;)

Interestingly some recent work indicates there may have been a similar credit crunch in Roman times, so maybe the OP is just playing historically without realising it..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...public-lecture

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

it does make you think, it seems as though every event in history is played out again and again, almost as if history is a giant wheel. the situations stay the same but the people it affects changes. its fascinating, if somebody wrote a book on it I would deffinitly read it.

[Maion Maroneios]

Yeah, it's the 'history repeats itself' thing. I believe there must be some written work dealing with this, some quick (or longer depends) Internet search might do the trick.

Maion

[LordCurlyton]

Money-making tips:
If you start as a faction with positive beginning balance (Romani especially), you're basically set. No debt means you have solved the biggest early game challenge by default. To stay that way, judiciously pick your wars and armies. Your starting forces, when combined, should be well sufficient to the task at hand of driving Epeiros out and beating on the tough Eleutheroi nuts above you. If you're one of the other big powers with no debt, the challenges are different. Unless you're Carthage. They must be the easiest campaign of all: no enemies around you until later, great economy and expansion opportunities, and a great unit roster. But the AS/Ptolies have each other to deal with and the AS have the added challenge of a rebellious and dangerous eastern front to deal with.
In any case, focus on economical improvements: roads, markets, ports, and mines. While mines should be built as soon as possible, they are pricey so early on you may want to focus on the infrastructure. The markets and ports especially can really boost your income for minimal investment. When conquering settlements early on, try and avoid sacking them as the larger populations = more money and controlling them should not be a big issue until they hit Large City or more. Of course, do note that tax income is not a straight line but more of an S-curve (or maybe it was logarithmic...I forget), so when you get to the point where you are conquering those big, rich cities, sack away, as they will regrow swiftly and you will get truly kingly sums of money from sacking.
As for armies, try to stick to mid-range units until you are solidly into the mid- to late-game, as they are easily your best bang for the buck. The Romani are an exception as they lack a truly "elite" unit but their unit roster form top to bottom is very solid, so you can build a full consular army of roughly historical ratios and you will get great performance at relatively bargain prices. Once you hit the Marians, that's even moreso as you get a great line infantry that comes in large bunches (202 at Huge) that is only relatively weak against heavy cavalry charges.
Pick your wars carefully. If you let yourself get dragged into multiple wars you will end with no trading partners and lots of armies to pay for. Even though the AI is homicidal and suicidal usually in diplomacy, they can still be played against each other if done right, thus keeping them just busy enough to not want to fight you. Posting your largest garrisons on AI borders is also a nice deterrent, as the AI loves to attack if it sees an "opportunity".
Now, if you are not one of the lucky factions, you find yourself in the red, often cripplingly so. As has been repeatedly stated in many threads, you have two choices: expand, or disband. Usually expansion is your best choice, though if you have cavalry you can usually disband that and save valuable mnai in upkeep. Also, get those taxes raised as much as possible to stave off the inevitable. You are almost guaranteed to fall into debt, sometimes a very significant amount. Just keep conquering as much as you can (using guard mode judiciously can really help) and you'll see the red start to slow down, go down, then disappear. For example, with the Arveni, I was able to beat the Aedui, leaving them only with Mediolanum (I wanted them there to tangle with the Romans), and conquer all of Gaul except Burdigala and Tolossa before I had basically exhausted my line infantry, so I disbanded my cavalry finally (yes I kept them all and they were crucial to my wins over the Aedui). I maxed out at roughly 23k of debt but after disbanding my cavalry when I was done in my initial wave of conquering I had an income of roughly 4k per turn and my debt had already gone down to 17k, so by 267 BCE I was in the black full speed.
Anyways, hope its all useful to you. And my lone input in the little "how realistic is the building tree blah blah blah": I view the player more as the Guiding Hand of Fate or some other deific force rather than any actual person in the game saying "build this". Thus what goes on is more an abstraction of all the various interaction, decisions, politics, and pragmatism that go on that cannot be represented in a war game, necessitating the usage of constructible objects to represent such things and the boni or mali that such decisions et al may confer.

[Watchman]

Yeah, it's the 'history reoeats itself' thing. I believe there must be some writter work dealing with this, some quick (or longer depends) Internet search might do the trick.

Maion

Economic history is indeed wont to repeat itself. But that's because the basic dynamics of human greed and ambition and how they interact with their surroundings are timeless enough.

[ziegenpeter]

Another thing I like to do (especially with the sweboz or KH): Use your family members as soldiers.
They can learn a lot from it and you have elite units for zero mnai! Sometimes I had 8 or 9 FM in a stack.

[Marcus Ulpius]

I usually had no problems building a strong Romani economy. Here's what I did in my Romani campaigns:

1-st I take Taras. You can do it on the 3-rd turn.

2-nd Rhegion
Then I usually expand into Sicily. I know, it means war with Carthage and no trade with them, but they rarely reinforce their presence on the island and after a short campaign, I take all 3 cities there (you can still get a ceasefire and trade rights with them after that).

At that point I have all of the southern Italy. The next stage is expanding North. I start with Bononia or Liguria. The full stack Aedui army rarely leaves Mediolanum (and when it does, it usually goes further into Gaul to protect core Aedui regions as they are attacked by Arverni). After I'm strong enough, I usually attack Mediolanum and that north-eastern town (can't remember its name right now). Taking Mediolanum doesn't burn all bridges to the peace with Aedui, but in any case loss of Mediolanum in most cases means that they will be killed off by Arverni, so I wouldn't worry about them.

While doing all this I build roads and mercantile ports where I can, later I build Forii (a bit expensive at the start) and mines at even later stages. I don't train a lot of units at the start, only enough to take those cities and garrison them. Of course taxes are at very high where it's possible. I also make peace with Epiros after taking Taras and after signing trading rights with them I continue with my diplomat further into Greece to get trade rights both with Maks and KH.

All this should be enough to support a strong Roman army ready to expand in any direction. Romani have a huge advantage of being able to produce cheap good heavy units (unlike many factions where you have to pay 3000 and more for their heavies/elites), so after you secure Italy, there's no problem in building strong and balanced Roman armies.

[Unferth of Gergovia]

This is jkleibrandt, I just changed my name and stuff cause I figured slapping ym name on the internet wasnt too smart haha, thank you so much for the input it has worked very well, you were all very in depth and I truly appreciate playing without the codes haha, we will see how it goes and will let you know,