Pezhetairoi unavailable for Epeiros?

[esix]

I have the Epirote barracks that can produce elephants in a homeland region ruled by a Type I government, but I still don't have Pezhetairoi Medium Phalanx available in the recruitment screen. I can only recruit Phalangitai Deuteroi and Chaeonion Agema.

I didn't have this problem playing Makedonia.

I am using the Alexander exe, EB 1.2, and EB Mini Mod Pack 3.1.

Any ideas what the problem could be?

-esix

[Hax]

You can recruit Pezhetairoi for Epiros in Pella and Demetrias.

[esix]

Thanks! It seems the problem was I was trying to recruit them in the two original regions Epeiros starts with in Greece.

[Megalos Danielos Psychopatos]

Had same problem, : https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=110323

[Maion Maroneios]

It's not a problem guys. It's intentional. The Pezhetairoi force where essentialy - and strictly - pure-blooded Makedonian citizens. So no recruiting them in Ambrakia guys. Just get over it, or try to mod them in yourself. This isn't vanilla RTW where you could train anything you wanted just about anywhere or in places the CA deemed fit (yes deemed or believed, not did lot of search about it). There was actually a reason for the existance of every unit in EB and maybe reading the units description will clarify things up.

Maion

[Megalos Danielos Psychopatos]

It's not a problem for me Maion, I didn't understand that before your reply for my post ( from the link) and my private studies in this matter, now everything's clear. I've written only that I HAD problem with that too... mybe it's caused my bad english-sorry If so.

[Maion Maroneios]

I believe you got me wrong here. I was not replying to you specifically. I was replying to all people out there who complain of not being able to train Pezhetairoi as Epeiros (or whatever faction) in their core cities.

Maion

[Belisarius12]

so you can only recruit them in pella and demetrias?

[Mediolanicus]

so they you can only recruit them in pella and demetrias?

Yes, just like it was historically.

[Megas Methuselah]

I thought they could also be recruited in Antioch and a couple other eastern cities that historically had a significant Makedonian and Hellenic population?

[Mediolanicus]

I thought they could also be recruited in Antioch and a couple other eastern cities that historically had a significant Makedonian and Hellenic population?

Computer says no...


RV says yes though... They are recruitable in Pella, Demetrias, Alexandria, Antiocheia, Babylon, Seleukeia and Baktria.

[Maion Maroneios]

They are for the rest of the Hellenistic Kingdoms. That's because only them can build a lvl1 govern,ent type. So no Pezhetairoi for Epeiros and Makedonia as well.

Maion

[Megas Methuselah]

Oh, ok. Understandable. The Klerouchoi Phalangitai make up for that loss quite well, though.

[antisocialmunky]

You know, I alway thought it was weird that Epeiros don't get those reformed pikemen. I know they were gone before then, but it doesn't seem like a stretch to see them adopting the latest and greatest tactics especially from such a close neighbor. Though I guess Epeiros does kinda need to get wiped out by Romanii for the Macedonian Wars to kick in...

Historically, I'm also curious why the Seleucids didn't re-equip their phalangites either.

[Megas Methuselah]

I think they did. I remember a discussion a while back about reformed Seleucid pikemen.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Pezhetairoi are available in those eastern towns for everyone. Since they only require a L3 Factional MIC, you only need a Type3 government.

In EB1, the military reform/changes for the Seleukids are represented by the Thorakitai, who were fielded in greater number in later years rather than pure phalangitai armies. In EBII, there is a good chance that the Seleukids may have reformed phalangitai, too. They don't in EB1 because of unit/model/skin conflicts.

[Maion Maroneios]

Epeiros doesn't get reformed pikemen because historically, Epeiros got creamed by the Romani way before the Makedones decided to reform their phalangitai. So no reformed pikemen for Epeiros as well.

As for the Seleukids and Ptolemaioi getting reformed pikemen as well, I'll tell you this: The answer of the eastern Hellenistic Kingdoms to the Macedonian Wars was the Romanization of their armies. They created Legionary forces and divided their armies in the Roman fashion, retaining some Greek features. That would be during the 2nd-1st century BC, until the fall of Alexandreia (30BC) and the end of the Hellenistic Era.

Maion

[Subotan]

As a result of this, Epeiros can't get any decent Phalangitai outside Pella/Demetrias. That seems unfair.

[Megas Methuselah]

Don't be such a jerk. They still get their elite phalanxes in their homelands.

[Connacht]

Epeiros doesn't get reformed pikemen because historically, Epeiros got creamed by the Romani way before the Makedones decided to reform their phalangitai. So no reformed pikemen for Epeiros as well.

As for the Seleukids and Ptolemaioi getting reformed pikemen as well, I'll tell you this: The answer of the eastern Hellenistic Kingdoms to the Macedonian Wars was the Romanization of their armies. They created Legionary forces and divided their armies in the Roman fashion, retaining some Greek features. That would be during the 2nd-1st century BC, until the fall of Alexandreia (30BC) and the end of the Hellenistic Era.

Maion

Hmmm, but in EB unit descriptions is told that all the similiarities between Eastern greek soldiers and Roman legions, with "copies of legionaries" and "Romanized successor armies", are only a myth.
Or maybe I'm getting confused with other things.

However, the Epeirotes were conquered before they could field any reformed phalanx, but if in game they survive and still have a developed military recruitment system maybe they may get those guys after Makedonia reforms his army.

[Megas Pyrrhos]

Yeah, I toyed with the idea of giving Epeiros the mak reformed pikemen, but then realized that, upon looking at the chaonian agema models and the reformed pikemen models, they are the same, so if they were in battle together, the game would crash. The only solution to that that I can think of would be to have the chaonian agema phased out when the reforms hit and not be recruitable anymore by Epeiros, thus solving the problem of having them both at the same time. Much like the celtic levy units when they change, new units replacing old ones. I just dunno how to do that yet for Epeiros...

[team_kramnik]

Having same model units in battle doesn't crash the game. They just look the same as the skins ("paint") of each model is set by the faction. Atleast I think so, never tryed. But that's no problem for the reformed pikemen as they are defined as a mercenary unit and so using it's own skin.

I think all you have to do to make them available to Epeiros is searching for hysteroi pezhetairoi in EB\Data\export_descr_unit.txt, adding thrace to it's ownership and changing it's voice_type to Heavy_1 (might be unnecessary). Then open export_descr_buildings.txt, search again for hysteroi pezhetairoi and copy the recruitment code for hysteroi pezhetairoi from macedon's barracks to thrace's (changing the faction to thrace of course).

[Megas Pyrrhos]

I hope it would be that simple. But, months and months ago, i somehow remember having a game crashing issue when playing as pontos and giving them some unit they're not supposed to have which it's model was already taken in pontos' normal roster. Maybe I'm just trippin though.

[team_kramnik]

For Makedonia the silvershields and reformed phalangites already use the same model which is no problem as the reformed phalangites are a merc unit. It would be the silvershields who conflict with the chaeonion agema not th reformed phalangites.

[Maion Maroneios]

Hmmm, but in EB unit descriptions is told that all the similiarities between Eastern greek soldiers and Roman legions, with "copies of legionaries" and "Romanized successor armies", are only a myth.
Or maybe I'm getting confused with other things.

However, the Epeirotes were conquered before they could field any reformed phalanx, but if in game they survive and still have a developed military recruitment system maybe they may get those guys after Makedonia reforms his army.

Actually, it's far from a myth. Historically, after the Roman expansions, almost every nation (at least every nation that got in contact with the Roman military juggernaut) copied Roman tactics. There are numerous sources which indicate at least the existence of a body of 'soldiers armed in the Roman fashion' as they are called. The Seleucid reformed army had about 5,000 of them.

Maion

[Megalos Danielos Psychopatos]

Hmmm, but in EB unit descriptions is told that all the similiarities between Eastern greek soldiers and Roman legions, with "copies of legionaries" and "Romanized successor armies", are only a myth.
Or maybe I'm getting confused with other things.

However, the Epeirotes were conquered before they could field any reformed phalanx, but if in game they survive and still have a developed military recruitment system maybe they may get those guys after Makedonia reforms his army.

So what do U think about giving Epeiros reformed phalangitai? As for me it looks very rationally; If they would survive they should have them...Maion it seems that U are ver well acquainted with this this subject, what do u think about it?


And second thing: how to do it technically if first problem will be solved positively?


Sorry for my english.

[Maion Maroneios]

Certainly, a contact between Epeiros and the Romani, with the former remaining alive, could theoretically mean Epeiros would sort of 'reform' their armies accordingly. So you could roleplay this by using more Thorakitai in your armies, as well as adding the reformed pikemen of Makedonia and tweak their AoR.

Then again, the possibilities are endless. I mean, you could even add a Legionary-like unit (like I have done with Makedonia) and roleplay some sort of Epeirotic Reforms or something. Another thing you could 'adopt' from the Romani, is rheir aggresiveness and stubborness in warfare. Anything is possible, you just imagination and, of course, a decent knowledge of tweaking EB to your preferences.

Maion

[Connacht]

Actually, it's far from a myth. Historically, after the Roman expansions, almost every nation (at least every nation that got in contact with the Roman military juggernaut) copied Roman tactics. There are numerous sources which indicate at least the existence of a body of 'soldiers armed in the Roman fashion' as they are called. The Seleucid reformed army had about 5,000 of them.

Maion

I think that the EB staff might like to see those sources, and also we players, who from "these units are the copies of the mighty legionaries of Rome!" passed to "the myth of the imitations of legionaries was born from this" and now don't know if to stay here or switch back.

[Maion Maroneios]

The Daphnae Parade (probably Summer, 165BC)

A fragment of Polybios (30.25.3.-11), preserved in the single manuscript of Athenaeus and passed down to modern times, the rare description of the composition of the Seleucid army during the parade of Daphnae lists the parading units as follows:

Infantry

5,000 Roman Infantry
5,000 Mysians
3,000 Cilician Light Infantry
3,000 Thracians
5,000 Galatians

(The Syro-Macedonian Phalanx)

20,000 Macedonians
5,000 Chalkaspides
? Argyraspides

Cavalry

1,000 Nisaian Cavalry
3,000 Citizen Cavalry (Politikoi)
1,000 Companion Cavalry
1,000 Friends (Philoi)
1,000 'Picked' Cavalry (Epilektoi)
1,000 The Agema
1,500 Cataphracts

Chariots and Elephants

100 Six-Horse Chariots
40 Four-Horse Chariots
1 Four-Elephant Chariot
1 Two-Elephant Chariot
36 Elephants

From the same description, about the men armed in the 'Roman' fashion:

"First in the parade came 5,000 men, 'armed in the Roman fashion' in mail cuirasses, men 'in the prime of life'."

Polybios gives the strength of the Seleucid Legion as 4,200 strong, it could be raised as high as 5,000 in times of exceptional danger.

Note the Seleucid soldiers were probably not organized exactly in the Roman way (10 cohorts of 500 men each), rather than in Asclepeiodotan lines.

Asclepeiodotan Heavy Infantry Maniple - Syntagma (Military organization):

Lochos (16 men) --> Tetrarchia (4x16=64 men) --> Taxis (2x64-128 men) --> Syntagma (128x2=256 men) + 7 officers + 5 Ektaktoi

Maion

[Ludens]

Actually, it's far from a myth. Historically, after the Roman expansions, almost every nation (at least every nation that got in contact with the Roman military juggernaut) copied Roman tactics. There are numerous sources which indicate at least the existence of a body of 'soldiers armed in the Roman fashion' as they are called. The Seleucid reformed army had about 5,000 of them.

They probably had more of them, as those were just the Silver Shield brigade. The EB team is not denying the influence of the Romans on the Hellenic militaries, but rather saying it's overstated. Ancient sources do mention "troops armed in the Roman manner". Modern-day historians and wargamers equated this to "imitation legionaries", but it need not have been direct copies. After all, these sources are always Romans or writing for a Roman audience, so possibly they used this phrase merely to easily convey the troop type to their readers. After all, soldiers equipped like legionaries (thureos shield, Celtic helmet, sword, (throwing) spear and later on chainmail) were already used by Hellenic states while Rome was still struggling to get out of Italy. That's not to say there was no Roman influence, because IIRC there is evidence that later thureophoroi unit were organized in ways similar to the legion, but clearly the Greeks were already developing along the same lines as Romans.