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Thread: Battle balance

  1. #1

    Default Battle balance

    Hail

    I have i question for the greatest moders of all time. Will the battle balance change a little? Cause, i think it´s really weird that a phalanx unit, even when charged in the flank or rear, can still turn away and wrack you down. So, could, please, someone tell me if there´re going to be changes in the battles. You guys must know that never a total war game will be as good and historical accurate as Europa Barbarorum.

  2. #2
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    We will completely have to revisit the stats. As far as phalanxes turning around that isn't something we can change, as it is hardcoded into their behaviour to face the unit with the highest danger rating.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Battle balance

    One thing I've seen with The Broken Crescent, the like 2 units that use spear wall all hold their formation pretty good.


    Though, due to the lack of lethality, they have 1 attack.


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  4. #4
    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucio Domicio Aureliano View Post
    Hail

    I have i question for the greatest moders of all time. Will the battle balance change a little? Cause, i think it´s really weird that a phalanx unit, even when charged in the flank or rear, can still turn away and wrack you down. So, could, please, someone tell me if there´re going to be changes in the battles. You guys must know that never a total war game will be as good and historical accurate as Europa Barbarorum.
    Yeah, those phalanxes are real killers. The EB phalangites are much more powerful than the RTW ones. It is practically impossible to beat a phalanx in an even all-infantry battle. Even if you had, say 5 elite infantry units and the enemy had 5 regular phalanx units, the phalanxes would almost always win.The only time I have beaten phalanxes in an uneven battle were the times when I used all-cavalry armies, which isn't exactly my style. I do have to say that it is pretty easy to win even the uneven battles with phalangites when you're playing as some all-cavalry nomadic factions, such as Pahlava, Sauromatae or Saka Rauka.

    In RTW, I remember, a Roman legionary could easily get through the wall of pikes that a phalanx creates, but in EB, units never seem to get behind even the first line of spears.
    Last edited by Aemilius Paulus; 09-07-2008 at 20:48.

  5. #5
    Not your friend Member General Appo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    Excuse me? Are you kidding? Have you even played RTW? In RTW Vanilla even touching the pikes of a phalanx spelled instant doom for anyone except überelite units.
    The Appomination

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  6. #6
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    Of course the phalanx is going to win. They've got the enemy about 12ft from them, its a no win contest from the front. But you get them in uneven territory (trees for favourite) and you pin down their slow moving phalanx, then you've got some winning material. I've played EBI (wow! really!) and I don't buy this "phalanx are really tough even from the flank and back". Firstly never attack their shield-flank side if you are to attack a flank (so their left and your right) because they get the shield bonus to their defense. Pin them down with a powerful unit and use a less powerful unit to flank (this stops the phalanx from just changing direction unrealistically).

    In RTW you could also stick a group of roman ninjas in short grass and then watch as the enemy pass. RTW is not a good base on which to judge things. Really.

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  7. #7
    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    Quote Originally Posted by General Appo View Post
    Excuse me? Are you kidding? Have you even played RTW? In RTW Vanilla even touching the pikes of a phalanx spelled instant doom for anyone except überelite units.
    Maybe, but you'll have to agree that phalanxes are even tougher in EB.

    This is one of my previous posts:
    "I was playing as the Romani once and I was in a battle against Seleukids. They had 4 Pantodapoi Phalangitai (Hellenic Native Phalanx) with zero exp./weap./armour, which are pretty much equivalent to Machimoi phalanx, among other units. Eventually I routed and destroyed most (except their cavalry) of the other units and was left with the four phalanxes. I sent four units of 2 exp/1 weapons&armour Principes to charge the front of each phalanx as well as 2 Greek Classical Hoplites and 3 Triarii with same weapons/exp/armour to fully envelop the phalanxes. The result was shocking. Those lousy Pantodapoi left each unit of Principes with only about 25 men each (from starting 82 men - large unit scale). After that battle I usually whittled down the Seleukid phalanxes with slingers or cavalry (charging in their backs)."

  8. #8

    Default Re: Battle balance

    I believe the phalanks in EB are a little bit stronger than they should be, if you go against some elite phalanks it´s almost certain that you´re going to lose even if you charge than in the flank or rear. I´m not saying this´s wrong but i think they should be a little weaker and suffer from a flank or rear attack heavily.

  9. #9
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    I know, thats what I understood from your first post. Obviously things will change in EBII (they'll have to because lethality don't exist no more), but I disagree with your assessment on strength. We do the best we can given the limitations in the stat code. Phalanxes may be a little too stronger than we might like on the flank and rear, but it is consequence of certain other stats that are essential, not a decision we made but one made for us.

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  10. #10
    Satalextos Basileus Seron Member satalexton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    i never had problem with phalanx troops, there's nothing a well timed hetairoi charge (or 2 at most) cannot rout =D




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    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Foot View Post
    they'll have to because lethality don't exist no more
    Foot
    Whaaat? Why did CA remove lethality from M2TW? To simplify the stats?

  12. #12
    Satalextos Basileus Seron Member satalexton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    i think that may be able to work around using hp and some adjusting with attack and defense stats... =/




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  13. #13
    Member Member quackingduck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    personally i think the current unit/battle balance is awesome. once i got over the original vanilla to eb shock, it was really good. i wouldn't know exactly how good the real phalaxes and such would have actually preformed, but for playing the game all the units were spot on, IMHO.
    Thank you EB team

  14. #14
    Not your friend Member General Appo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus View Post
    Maybe, but you'll have to agree that phalanxes are even tougher in EB.

    This is one of my previous posts:
    "I was playing as the Romani once and I was in a battle against Seleukids. They had 4 Pantodapoi Phalangitai (Hellenic Native Phalanx) with zero exp./weap./armour, which are pretty much equivalent to Machimoi phalanx, among other units. Eventually I routed and destroyed most (except their cavalry) of the other units and was left with the four phalanxes. I sent four units of 2 exp/1 weapons&armour Principes to charge the front of each phalanx as well as 2 Greek Classical Hoplites and 3 Triarii with same weapons/exp/armour to fully envelop the phalanxes. The result was shocking. Those lousy Pantodapoi left each unit of Principes with only about 25 men each (from starting 82 men - large unit scale). After that battle I usually whittled down the Seleukid phalanxes with slingers or cavalry (charging in their backs)."
    Sounds like maybe this guy wasn´t playing on Medium.
    The Appomination

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  15. #15

    Default Re: Battle balance

    I've never had any problem with the phalanxes. Sure, they pack quite a punch, but then again, they're supposed to. If you manage to surround them, that ususally does tyhe trick.


  16. #16
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    well, they didn't totally remove the lethality (at, least, in a manner of RTW). there is a file with the correct info in it. I work on a mod of M2TW myself (frontier, at the TW center). here is a transcript of a PM:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kundich
    I agree about quick and bloody. If you've got a little time, try opening up your battle_config.xml file and look for the following line:



    Code:
    <melee-hit-rate>1.75</melee-hit-rate>


    Comment out this line and change that value to 0.25, like this:



    Code:
    <!--<melee-hit-rate>1.75</melee-hit-rate>-->
    
    <melee-hit-rate>0.25</melee-hit-rate>


    This will make your battles last much longer with casualty rates generally between 10% and 30% per battle before an army runs. Assuming no massive cavalry chase, two armies can survive several engagements relatively intact for some time.



    To avoid massive damage from missile units, likewise adjust their unit hit probabilities downward. We can make specific values for many types of units, too. Check it out and tell me what you think.





    Thanks,

    ADM
    this is assuming of course that hit rate=similar to, or is lethality.

    as for the part highlighted in red, I'm not sure if that is true...I'll let you fellows know on friday.
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  17. #17
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    Wow, great info there. We'll have to look into that.

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  18. #18
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    thank Kundich. the guy knows his M2TW programming
    Last edited by Ibrahim; 09-09-2008 at 16:56.
    I was once alive, but then a girl came and took out my ticker.

    my 4 year old modding project--nearing completion: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=219506 (if you wanna help, join me).

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  19. #19
    EB Traitor Member BozosLiveHere's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    melee-hit-rate is an entry in battle_config.xml. It is a global value, not unit-specific like lethality was in RTW.

  20. #20
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    Quote Originally Posted by BozosLiveHere View Post
    melee-hit-rate is an entry in battle_config.xml. It is a global value, not unit-specific like lethality was in RTW.
    well, If Kudich is right, you can make it so that the various types of units have various hit rates. I'm well aware of the limitations as you show them, but its better than nothing. besides, i hope to conduct tests in the weekend (when the laptiop is "ransomed" from its storage), and see it in more detail. I might learn more as I go on with these tests.
    Last edited by Ibrahim; 09-09-2008 at 17:32.
    I was once alive, but then a girl came and took out my ticker.

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  21. #21
    EB Traitor Member BozosLiveHere's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    There's been a furious debate at the TWC about that. I'd rather side with Lusted and empiricism on this.

  22. #22
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    Quote Originally Posted by BozosLiveHere View Post
    There's been a furious debate at the TWC about that. I'd rather side with Lusted and empiricism on this.
    ah, i see now. I didn't know that. I'll notify Kundich.
    why didn't you say that the first time? I had no idea, as I said, I was to test this on the weekend-this is by PM mind you.

    so only 1 value indeed?
    Last edited by Ibrahim; 09-09-2008 at 22:56.
    I was once alive, but then a girl came and took out my ticker.

    my 4 year old modding project--nearing completion: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=219506 (if you wanna help, join me).

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  23. #23
    EB Traitor Member BozosLiveHere's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    For melee-hit-rate? Yes. Or at least it is very very likely to be so. Missile-target-accuracy allows for infantry, cavalry and elephants entries.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Battle balance

    Hail

    i was wondering since CA removed lethality. Does this means that the EB team, if is their wish to do so, can stop the phalanks of reforming after being flanked because i think this way the phalanks will be better represented.
    Polybius tells us that the main reason why the maniple is superior to the phalanks is because of the possibility of keeping man in reserve and when the phalanks start to move flank them and cut them into pieces.

  25. #25
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    lethality has nothing to do with a phalanx reforming. I don't know where you got that idea.

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  26. #26

    Default Re: Battle balance

    I´m sorry Foot. But, do you think there´s anyhow for the EB team, if this is their wish to do so, stop the phalanks of reforming after a flank or rear attack.
    Again, i´m sorry even i don´t know where i got this idea.

  27. #27
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    No, I do not think there is anyway to solve it. They will always reform to meet the toughest unit, which makes pinning them with low-level spearmen pointless. There may be something in the ai files, but I haven't been able to look at them yet.

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  28. #28
    EB Traitor Member BozosLiveHere's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    Actually, our EB2 phalanx doesn't reform at all if hit from behind. It switches to swords and stays that way.

  29. #29
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle balance

    Oh really? Cool. I haven't played with them much yet.

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  30. #30

    Default Re: Battle balance

    Quote Originally Posted by BozosLiveHere View Post
    Actually, our EB2 phalanx doesn't reform at all if hit from behind. It switches to swords and stays that way.
    Great, fantastic

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