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Originally Posted by Quintus.JC:
Zhuge Liang just became less god-like then he had been.
To be fair, unless he was an metereologist, he would hardly know how fogs and winds appeared and vanished. The fisherman must of had a life long experience for him to know the wind patterns of the river, still that doesn't deny the fact that he was the best strategist ever.Zhuge Liang just became less god-like then he had been.
Likewise, Liu Bei is depicted in the Romance as the most virtuous and kind of all people, though in reality he was much more 'grey'. For instance, it was Liu Bei himself who ordered the beating of Cao Xing which led to the attack of Lu Bu. The Romance also has Liu Bei look like a weak or mediocre general, while in reality he was far more able in commanding armies than in the Romance.
Originally Posted by Jolt:
To be fair, unless he was an metereologist, he would hardly know how fogs and winds appeared and vanished. The fisherman must of had a life long experience for him to know the wind patterns of the river, still that doesn't deny the fact that he was the best strategist ever.
Likewise, Liu Bei is depicted in the Romance as the most virtuous and kind of all people, though in reality he was much more 'grey'. For instance, it was Liu Bei himself who ordered the beating of Cao Xing which led to the attack of Lu Bu. The Romance also has Liu Bei look like a weak or mediocre general, while in reality he was far more able in commanding armies than in the Romance.
Again some new unwelcoming fact, I always did knew Liu Bei was a greyed out character but still prefered to remember him as a true peoples' man, I still hopes that he does displayed some virtue in real life that correspond to the novel.To be fair, unless he was an metereologist, he would hardly know how fogs and winds appeared and vanished. The fisherman must of had a life long experience for him to know the wind patterns of the river, still that doesn't deny the fact that he was the best strategist ever.
Likewise, Liu Bei is depicted in the Romance as the most virtuous and kind of all people, though in reality he was much more 'grey'. For instance, it was Liu Bei himself who ordered the beating of Cao Xing which led to the attack of Lu Bu. The Romance also has Liu Bei look like a weak or mediocre general, while in reality he was far more able in commanding armies than in the Romance.
Still thanks for the facts.
Originally Posted by Quintus.JC:
Again some new unwelcoming fact, I always did knew Liu Bei was a greyed out character but still prefered to remember him as a true peoples' man, I still hopes that he does displayed some virtue in real life that correspond to the novel.
Still thanks for the facts.
He wasn't as famous as the Romance makes out of him, for instance:Again some new unwelcoming fact, I always did knew Liu Bei was a greyed out character but still prefered to remember him as a true peoples' man, I still hopes that he does displayed some virtue in real life that correspond to the novel.
Still thanks for the facts.
- There was no beatiful Peach Garden Oath. They just swore brotherhood normally.
- He played a very minor role in the Yellow Turban rebellion. Hardly could he have saved an Imperial Governor such as Dong Zhuo.
- It wasn't Zhang Fei who whiped the Imperial Emmissary asking for a bribe for the eunuchs. Liu Bei did it himself.
- Tao Qian (Xu Governor) didn't offer his land to Liu Bei. It was Mi Zhu who did it, along with Chen Deng and Kong Rong. He also never offered Xuzhou to Lu Bu.
- He never was acknowledged as the "Imperial Uncle", despite this nickname being widely used in the novel after the audience with Emperor Xian.
- Certainly did not rely on Xu Shu to defend Xinye from Cao Ren and Li Dian. He arranged and carried out the defense himself. (Which worked brilliantly, imo)
- It was after this time that Zhuge Liang was employed into Liu Bei's service, at Xu Shu's recomendation and while Xu Shu still served Liu Bei. The Three Visits did exist though.
- Also defeated Xiahou Dun at Xin Ye, not Zhuge Liang nor Xu Shu (Who had already left Liu Bei, anyhow).
- Had than three sons and some daughters (Which were, unfortunately, captured by Cao Chun at Changban Slope)
- Zhou Yu's attempted assassination at Chi Bi battle was non existent. Although Sun Quan was advised by Zhou Yu and Han Ze to keep Liu Bei hostage during his visit to Wu, no such attempt was made, and Liu Bei left without incident.
- Huang Zhong was not chief commander of Shu’s Hanzhong campaign. Liu Bei was (Once again, brilliantly conducted).
- Commanded between 40–80,000 troops at Yiling; far fewer than the 700,000 or so mentioned in the novel. Wu on the other hand had several hundred thousands. It is magnificent to see Liu Bei, already an Emperor and unused to commanding armies, beat Wu's armies repeatedly and force them on the defensive with a gigantic inferior army ratio.
All in all, Liu Bei was really an ordinary warlord. Still he is my favourite character of the Romance, with Zhuge Liang behind him as a close second. Guan Yu is too incredibly over-rated. He might be by far the most overrated character of the entire novel:
- Didn't kill Hua Xiong (Dong Zhuo's uber-like general), Sun Jian's troops did that themselves.
- Did not give specifics terms of surrender to Cao Cao (Shocking isn't it? Cao Cao had just probably murdered his own sworn brothers, and he joined unregretably. No more noble conduct)
- Never killed Wen Chou (Yuan Shao's uber-like general), who actually died in battle with Cao Cao after falling for a plot.
- Guan Yu did not ‘traverse five passes’ and ‘slay five generals’. Cao Cao admired his honor and sense of duty, and allowed him to leave. In majority, the characters that appeared in this novel event were fictional.
- After Cao Cao was throughly defeated in Chibi, Guan Yu did not meet with and spare Cao Cao at Huarong (Again, no more honourable conduct).
- Did not ‘fight with and release’ Huang Zhong. Han Xuan and Huang Zhong surrendered of their own accord.
-Did not plan to duel Ma Chao when he was promoted. Simply sent a letter asking how they compared (No honourable pride and sense of demonstrating he was uber-leet, since he wasn't and would probably have been pwned by Ma Chao should any such event had happened; Zhang Fei didn't duel Ma Chao either).
- In the novel Lü Meng feigned illness to trick Guan Yu. Historically, Lü Meng was truly ill (Poor Guan Yu, tricked by a non-existent trick. >_>)
- The flooding of Fan Castle was not Guan Yu’s stratagem. It was a natural occurrence (Guan Yu had no clue it was going to happen).
- Guan Yu was executed without Sun Quan's knowledge or consentment (The poor guy :P)
Many more nifty things haven't happened in real history. :P
Originally Posted by Jolt:
Guan Yu is too incredibly over-rated. He might be by far the most overrated character of the entire novel:
While I do agree that he is overrated novelwise, Guan Yu's martial prowess was outstanding. Slew Yan Liang, defeated Pang De and Yu Jin, as well as his very helpful service at Chang Ban. Also, don't forget that Chen Shou didn't make the best Shu biographies, after all, he was serving the Jin. He had to make the biographies short and discreet, one wrong word and he could have been undone, my point is that Guan Yu is in fact underrated, historically and not novelwise. Although he was arrogant and blinded by his pride, he was a far better warrior than he was as a general. In addition, He was one of the most feared warriors of his time, both Cao Cao's, Sun Quan's and Lu Meng's Sanguozi biographies lay claim to this. I think there are two possible explanations for this, and that is either Chen Shou did not record everything Guan Yu did, or Guan Yu really was an overrated, arrogant bastard. We never know.Guan Yu is too incredibly over-rated. He might be by far the most overrated character of the entire novel:
Anyway, my favorite historical figures would be Khalid ibn Al Walid and Napoleon Bonaparte.
Originally Posted by Jolt:
He wasn't as famous as the Romance makes out of him, for instance.....
Seems that we both share a fascination with the Romance of the three kingdoms. Guan Yu was massively overrated, the fact that he is worshiped as a deity in China in these days just shows it entirely. I myself is a big fan of Cao Cao, reading the novel would get you an antaganising opionion about him, but the real Cao Cao was much different.He wasn't as famous as the Romance makes out of him, for instance.....
Ben Franklin
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
Ben Franklin
To French.Ben Franklin
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
To French.
Not at all. Jefferson was too frenchified. Franklin merely enjoyed the .... er.... companionship of a number of frenchwomen....had to keep up his....esprit de corps. To French.
Originally Posted by Quintus.JC:
Seems that we both share a fascination with the Romance of the three kingdoms. Guan Yu was massively overrated, the fact that he is worshiped as a deity in China in these days just shows it entirely. I myself is a big fan of Cao Cao, reading the novel would get you an antaganising opionion about him, but the real Cao Cao was much different.
Just because he is overrated, doesn't mean his achievements should be overlooked. It is also a common misconception that Guan Yu is worshiped as a deity by anyone outside the Sanguo era, Kwan Gong however, is still a deity and referred to as the "God of War". And Cao Cao is also my favorite, I'm a Wei-ist when it comes to the Three Kingdoms. But didn't Cao Cao execute one of his men in Guan Du just to strike fear into his troops?Seems that we both share a fascination with the Romance of the three kingdoms. Guan Yu was massively overrated, the fact that he is worshiped as a deity in China in these days just shows it entirely. I myself is a big fan of Cao Cao, reading the novel would get you an antaganising opionion about him, but the real Cao Cao was much different.
Originally Posted by Fahad I:
Just because he is overrated, doesn't mean his achievements should be overlooked. It is also a common misconception that Guan Yu is worshiped as a deity by anyone outside the Sanguo era, Kwan Gong however, is still a deity and referred to as the "God of War". And Cao Cao is also my favorite, I'm a Wei-ist when it comes to the Three Kingdoms. But didn't Cao Cao execute one of his men in Guan Du just to strike fear into his troops?
Not at Guan Du. If I'm not mistaken it was either when he was fighting Yuan Shu or Lu Bu. My bet'd go to the former. You mean when his troops were out of supplies, and he "borrowed his head", as an excuse that supplies had dwindled due to the executed man's fault.Just because he is overrated, doesn't mean his achievements should be overlooked. It is also a common misconception that Guan Yu is worshiped as a deity by anyone outside the Sanguo era, Kwan Gong however, is still a deity and referred to as the "God of War". And Cao Cao is also my favorite, I'm a Wei-ist when it comes to the Three Kingdoms. But didn't Cao Cao execute one of his men in Guan Du just to strike fear into his troops?
I find Cao Cao in the novel to be a dumbass many times. Especially with those lines where one of his advisors'd go like: "What is your plan, my Lord?", and Cao Cao'd go: "No, what is your plan?" then the advisor would reply coming up with some clever scheme and Cao Cao'd say "It's exactly what I thought!" >_> Anyway I already played the Three Kingdoms game many years ago (Like, 8 years ago), making me a grizzled veteran, only known by the hardcore veterans of that game. Later, I wondered around the RTK Sims such as this one, but it is in the process of beginning a new game. I've been around the 3 Kingdom era for a great while.
Of course, as I well said, my favorite person is Zhuge Liang, by far and wide.
I have witnessed many arguments over Guan Yu's achievements or not, and I've gradually despised him.
Anyway, here is a nice glimpse of what I think about him:
Originally Posted by :
Whilst it was my intention to bow out of statting for the time being, I shall have to comment here. How in the world do you believe Guan Yu deserves those increases in statistics, especially politics? Guan Yu was defeated far more often then twice, in actuality his only major victory was against Yu Jin. Yu did not hold off Xu Huang, the latter came to reinforce Cao Ren was decimated Guan Yu with a peasant militia despite Yu having an elite Shu army under his command. Huang was a superior commander by far however only a fool would lose when all the odds happened to fall at his footsteps.
Elsewhere although the novel attempts to redeem Guan Yu's reputation at Xuzhou, he was defeated by overwhelming odds against Cao Cao and historically surrendered with little hesitation and no three conditions. Furthermore prior to this I recall him having lost to Zhang Liao. Lest we have neglected his arrogance nearly allowing Huang Zhong to slay him dead and not to mention Zhong's ability to hold him back
Beyond the aforementioned victory over Yu Jin, Guan Yu had no actualy victories that I ca recall where someone else did not play an immense role in securing said victory; even when against Pang De, Guan Yu's foolishness nearly saw his demise had Guan Ping not dashed forward to interfere. Definitely keep his lead in the seventies, he was an above average commander at best.
Guan Yu was an absolute disaster as a Governor and often credited for what led to the strife and inevitable showdown between the Kingdoms of Wu and Shu. Initially his role in Xuzhou was exceptionally limited as Liu Beu lost territory about as often as it rains in Vancouver; moreover Bei's friendship and lack of capable officers would also attest to Yu's appointment. Afterwards in Jingzhou, it was Zhuge Liang who held office until the acquisition of Yizhou, although I believe Liang may have left immediately after the death of Pang Tong.
Nevertheless practically everything besides his attack on Fan Castle was as I mentioned earlier, a disaster. In the novel he refused to give Sun Quan territory that had been already agreed upon by Liu and Sun and stubbornly remained so, even threatening Lu Su with execution if he not leave; all until Zhuge returned to Jingzhou to force his hand. In history Lu Su merely defeated an unsuspecting Guan Yu although not directly. Continuing along these lines Guan Yu openly insulted not only the Wu Kingdom, yet their liege, Sun Quan as well; to the point he refused a political marriage - which would have strengthened the alliance and redeemed his previous indiscretions - by once more insulting Quan and his son. His arrogance turned violent when he raided the supplies of the Wu encampment to aid his own food supply.
All in all Guan Y u gave Wu every excuse in existence to declare Wu, whether or not it was the correct course of action. I might as well deal with his Intelligence here as well, Yu had a single ploy become successful and it was novel only I believe, not to mention LGZ steals away some of Yu's credit when he makes various notions of Yu Jin's own idiocy to follow sound advice and to thwart his own officer's (Pang De) near guaranteed victory due to an insecurity regarding reward. This all thoroughly works against Guan Yu's intelligence and again in the novel Yu is humiliated in a debate - despite receiving a poem of valor - by Lu Su. Of course I close this portion of his statistics by mentioning Lu Xun and Lu Meng playing him like a complete fool by pattering his arrogance, which subsequently led to his demise.
Guan Yu was a respected opponent however few outside of Shu and even those within actually held him in high accord on a personal level. He was arrogant and often made certain those beneath him understood he was their superior. I cite the example of his complaints when Ma Chao and Huang Zhong were granted the title of Tiger Generals. He was only appeased when Zhuge Liang made it clear he was to be seen as their superiors.
Whilst it was my intention to bow out of statting for the time being, I shall have to comment here. How in the world do you believe Guan Yu deserves those increases in statistics, especially politics? Guan Yu was defeated far more often then twice, in actuality his only major victory was against Yu Jin. Yu did not hold off Xu Huang, the latter came to reinforce Cao Ren was decimated Guan Yu with a peasant militia despite Yu having an elite Shu army under his command. Huang was a superior commander by far however only a fool would lose when all the odds happened to fall at his footsteps.
Elsewhere although the novel attempts to redeem Guan Yu's reputation at Xuzhou, he was defeated by overwhelming odds against Cao Cao and historically surrendered with little hesitation and no three conditions. Furthermore prior to this I recall him having lost to Zhang Liao. Lest we have neglected his arrogance nearly allowing Huang Zhong to slay him dead and not to mention Zhong's ability to hold him back
Beyond the aforementioned victory over Yu Jin, Guan Yu had no actualy victories that I ca recall where someone else did not play an immense role in securing said victory; even when against Pang De, Guan Yu's foolishness nearly saw his demise had Guan Ping not dashed forward to interfere. Definitely keep his lead in the seventies, he was an above average commander at best.
Guan Yu was an absolute disaster as a Governor and often credited for what led to the strife and inevitable showdown between the Kingdoms of Wu and Shu. Initially his role in Xuzhou was exceptionally limited as Liu Beu lost territory about as often as it rains in Vancouver; moreover Bei's friendship and lack of capable officers would also attest to Yu's appointment. Afterwards in Jingzhou, it was Zhuge Liang who held office until the acquisition of Yizhou, although I believe Liang may have left immediately after the death of Pang Tong.
Nevertheless practically everything besides his attack on Fan Castle was as I mentioned earlier, a disaster. In the novel he refused to give Sun Quan territory that had been already agreed upon by Liu and Sun and stubbornly remained so, even threatening Lu Su with execution if he not leave; all until Zhuge returned to Jingzhou to force his hand. In history Lu Su merely defeated an unsuspecting Guan Yu although not directly. Continuing along these lines Guan Yu openly insulted not only the Wu Kingdom, yet their liege, Sun Quan as well; to the point he refused a political marriage - which would have strengthened the alliance and redeemed his previous indiscretions - by once more insulting Quan and his son. His arrogance turned violent when he raided the supplies of the Wu encampment to aid his own food supply.
All in all Guan Y u gave Wu every excuse in existence to declare Wu, whether or not it was the correct course of action. I might as well deal with his Intelligence here as well, Yu had a single ploy become successful and it was novel only I believe, not to mention LGZ steals away some of Yu's credit when he makes various notions of Yu Jin's own idiocy to follow sound advice and to thwart his own officer's (Pang De) near guaranteed victory due to an insecurity regarding reward. This all thoroughly works against Guan Yu's intelligence and again in the novel Yu is humiliated in a debate - despite receiving a poem of valor - by Lu Su. Of course I close this portion of his statistics by mentioning Lu Xun and Lu Meng playing him like a complete fool by pattering his arrogance, which subsequently led to his demise.
Guan Yu was a respected opponent however few outside of Shu and even those within actually held him in high accord on a personal level. He was arrogant and often made certain those beneath him understood he was their superior. I cite the example of his complaints when Ma Chao and Huang Zhong were granted the title of Tiger Generals. He was only appeased when Zhuge Liang made it clear he was to be seen as their superiors.
Originally Posted by :
few outside of Shu and even those within actually held him in high accord on a personal level.
few outside of Shu and even those within actually held him in high accord on a personal level.
Originally Posted by Fahad I:
He was one of the most feared warriors of his time, both Cao Cao's, Sun Quan's and Lu Meng's Sanguozi biographies lay claim to this.
His administrative, political, and leadership skills weren't that great, but he was a respected warrior at the time, and he probably killed more than the SGZ credits him for.He was one of the most feared warriors of his time, both Cao Cao's, Sun Quan's and Lu Meng's Sanguozi biographies lay claim to this.
Originally Posted by :
I find Cao Cao in the novel to be a dumbass many times. Especially with those lines where one of his advisors'd go like: "What is your plan, my Lord?", and Cao Cao'd go: "No, what is your plan?" then the advisor would reply coming up with some clever scheme and Cao Cao'd say "It's exactly what I thought!" >_> Anyway I already played the Three Kingdoms game many years ago (Like, 8 years ago), making me a grizzled veteran, only known by the hardcore veterans of that game. Later, I wondered around the RTK Sims such as this one, but it is in the process of beginning a new game. I've been around the 3 Kingdom era for a great while.
I didn't bother finishing the first volume of the novel, I didn't enjoy it at all, especially after finding out about its historical inaccuracies.I find Cao Cao in the novel to be a dumbass many times. Especially with those lines where one of his advisors'd go like: "What is your plan, my Lord?", and Cao Cao'd go: "No, what is your plan?" then the advisor would reply coming up with some clever scheme and Cao Cao'd say "It's exactly what I thought!" >_> Anyway I already played the Three Kingdoms game many years ago (Like, 8 years ago), making me a grizzled veteran, only known by the hardcore veterans of that game. Later, I wondered around the RTK Sims such as this one, but it is in the process of beginning a new game. I've been around the 3 Kingdom era for a great while.
Originally Posted by :
Of course, as I well said, my favorite person is Zhuge Liang, by far and wide.
Agreed, compared to the other strategists of the time. It's a shame his successor was not as talented...Of course, as I well said, my favorite person is Zhuge Liang, by far and wide.
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