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  1. #1
    Tribune of the Plebeians Member Guildenstern's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    I am amazed
    I'm amazed by the number of Gazans who died in this 22 day war.

    And all this war for what? Has Hamas been weakened?
    Omnia enim plerumque quae absunt vehementius hominum mentes perturbant.
    For generally all evils which are distant most powerfully alarm men's minds.
    Gaius Julius Caesar

    Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans.
    John Lennon

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guildenstern View Post
    I'm amazed by the number of Gazans who died in this 22 day war.
    I'm amazed by the fairly good number of Hamas militants that were killed. Good on Israel.

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    *yawn*
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    I'm amazed by the fairly good number of Hamas militants that were killed. Good on Israel.
    Uhm..... And just how many was that, really? A hundred? "Wow".
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Uhm..... And just how many was that, really? A hundred? "Wow".
    As I pointed out on the first page of the first thread, which was relatively close to the beginning of the conflict, even Hamas acknowledged that more than this amount of militants had died.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    As I pointed out on the first page of the first thread, which was relatively close to the beginning of the conflict, even Hamas acknowledged that more than this amount of militants had died.
    There are roughly 1200 confirmed kills(but this will undoubtedly rise). Roughly 400 of those are children alone. Then add in the women. Then add in the old people. Then add in the civilian male population. That doesn't leave many left for Hamas fighters, now does it?

    And as an added bonus, how many thousands new recruits do you think they'll get because of this? Win-win for Hamas. A resounding defeat for Israel and the palestinian people.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  7. #7
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    There are roughly 1200 confirmed kills(but this will undoubtedly rise). Roughly 400 of those are children alone. Then add in the women. Then add in the old people. Then add in the civilian male population. That doesn't leave many left for Hamas fighters, now does it?
    Firstly, them being children does not necessarily mean that they were not Hamas fighters. Secondly, Hamas militant deaths have been estimated as between four hundred and six hundred and fifty, plus another hundred and fifty-odd police officers - which is probably a pretty good job by Israel considering the closeness with which Hamas operates around civilians.

  8. #8
    ............... Member Scurvy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Firstly, them being children does not necessarily mean that they were not Hamas fighters.
    Hard to know how many children 'are' fighters, and how many are forced/told to do things, as with child soldiers in Africa etc. --> there will certainly be many more as they grow older, having seen what Israel did...

    Hamas militant deaths have been estimated as between four hundred and six hundred and fifty, plus another hundred and fifty-odd police officers - which is probably a pretty good job by Israel
    Estimated by who? --> there is not really any way of knowing how many Hamas fighters have died/ how many there were in the first place, certainly very few of the highest ranking Hamas officicals have been killed, and how many non-Hamas terrorists are still around


    considering the closeness with which Hamas operates around civilians.
    its not the civilians fault that Hamas happen to operate near to them...


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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    Well done Mars , you just justified dozens of bombings in Israel .

  10. #10
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Firstly, them being children does not necessarily mean that they were not Hamas fighters. Secondly, Hamas militant deaths have been estimated as between four hundred and six hundred and fifty, plus another hundred and fifty-odd police officers - which is probably a pretty good job by Israel considering the closeness with which Hamas operates around civilians.
    Uhm.... 500 dead fighters? That's a good number? Do you know how many will take up arms because of this? It's ridiculous to think that number will be counted in hundreds, it will at least be in the thousands.

    And then you have the 70.000 who want to take up arms in Iran alone because of this...

    No, there's no denying that this is a resounding long-term defeat by Israel. Thousands of people around the world want to take up arms against them, and they've alienated their allies even more. The only thing Israel has won by this is more enemies.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  11. #11
    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post

    Firstly, them being children does not necessarily mean that they were not Hamas fighters.
    We are reaching new moral lows here... This is unexplored territory...The justification of killing children because some might have been forced to fight for terrorists.

    ...I bet some of the Jewish people in Nazi concentration camps were criminals too. Hell, some of the kids there might have stolen things or engaged in criminal activity...

    ...Dont lose your soul trying to justify things mate.
    Αξιζει φιλε να πεθανεις για ενα ονειρο, κι ας ειναι η φωτια του να σε καψει.

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    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Two ceasefires ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    which is probably a pretty good job by Israel considering the closeness with which Hamas operates around civilians.
    Is that the famous 'Hamas use civilians as human shields' thingy? Because all I see is people voluntarily running around to see what's going on. Not some Hamas people lining up 8 years old children and hidding behind them while firing at the IDF.

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    I'm amazed by the fairly good number of Hamas militants that were killed. Good on Israel.
    And how many people saw their relatives killed for no good reason? How many of these people will become militants?
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Member Member Beren Son Of Barahi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    For this to end; there needs to be around 20 years of sustained peace. Countless, pointless and un-winnable wars does nothing for each side. The countless endless cycles of threats and counter threats; violence and counter-violence is not furthering the people on either side of the conflict. Only time and a sense of progress will temper the extremes on both sides. the middle ground must feel they have something gained for their struggle to be moderate.

    Both sides need to give the sticks a rest and try the carrot...


    edit: on a side note i thought the title was going to be Two ceasefires ...one cup.
    Last edited by Beren Son Of Barahi; 01-19-2009 at 07:19.
    The true test of a man is not at his great moment, but at his weakest point. -me

  15. #15
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Meneldil View Post
    Is that the famous 'Hamas use civilians as human shields' thingy? Because all I see is people voluntarily running around to see what's going on. Not some Hamas people lining up 8 years old children and hidding behind them while firing at the IDF.
    Firstly, some civilians even volunteer to be used this way. Secondly, in the modern age, using a human shield doesn't necessarily mean walking behind them - it can mean hiding weapons or fighters in their basements or schools, or firing from the middle of crowds or from among apartment buildings which are full, videos of which I have shown.

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos View Post
    We are reaching new moral lows here... This is unexplored territory...The justification of killing children because some might have been forced to fight for terrorists.
    If someone is shooting at you, you shoot back. And since you have already violated Godwin's Law, allow me to use the example of underage children in the Volkssturm. The Soviets, in my opinion, had every right to shoot at them. You obviously disagree.

    ...I bet some of the Jewish people in Nazi concentration camps were criminals too. Hell, some of the kids there might have stolen things or engaged in criminal activity...
    That relates? Care to make a logical explanation as to how?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Uhm.... 500 dead fighters? That's a good number?
    That is still five hundred dead Hamas militants, and the fact is that they're dead. They may be replaced, but they're not getting up.

    Do you know how many will take up arms because of this? It's ridiculous to think that number will be counted in hundreds, it will at least be in the thousands.
    Isn't that what people say after every war Israel is involved in? But really, I think it is quite naive to believe that Israel will just sit there through so many bombardments. Did they go too far? Perhaps. Do I blame them? Not in the slightest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    So you demonstrate a lack of comprehension , congratulations
    ...you completely missed the point. Then again, a lot of others probably did as well, so perhaps that was my fault.
    Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 01-19-2009 at 16:49.

  16. #16
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    At the end of the day, it all boils down to who supports a two-state solution and who does not. Hamas does not support a two-state solution, never has and never will. They would rather die themselves then allow the Israelis to live there. Note the use of the term Hamas, not Palestinian. Israel does not do itself any service by continuing to conflate the two, nor does the U.S.

    We need to provide viable alternatives to the Palestian people. Be it Fatah or other leadership within the Palestinian community, we have to find a way to get the Palestinians to choose leadership other than Hamas.

    Has anybody ever seen any numbers on the number of Palestinians that would accept a two-state solution? Is there a political will to be sought? At the end of the day, if Palestinians would rather die killing Israelis then live alongside them, we're all in a holding pattern.

    As for the issues that have always been the last 5%, rather than trying to split hairs, why don't they give one hair to one side and one hair to the other? Why not allow for Right of Return, but Jerusalem stays as part of Israel?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Isn't that what people say after every war Israel is involved in? But really, I think it is quite naive to believe that Israel will just sit there through so many bombardments. Did they go too far? Perhaps. Do I blame them? Not in the slightest.
    They have one response when the terrorists are palestinians, and they have another one when the terrorists are jews. If they used the same method they use against the jewish terrorists against Hamas, they might actually accomplish something.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  18. #18

    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    I've posted articles before that Tribesman will disavow, but they come from the founding charters of Hizbollah and Hamas. They don't just deny the right of Israel as a nation to exist, they deny the right of non-muslims as individual people to exist
    Of course I shall disavow that , unless you also mention that it is taken from Islamic scripture and both Jewish and Christian scripture also say the same about people who follow the wrong faith at the end of times (or mormons and scientologists for that matter) .

    That being said, Israel has proven repeatedly that given the right motivational prompting, they'll have them down in months if not weeks.
    Actually they havn't Don ,they have shown that they will pull out of settlements if they are too expensive to maintain .
    Now there might be some motivational prompting that can be applied , like taking away all grants dollar for dollar your government gives Israel for every dollar Israel spends on the illegal settlements . Also you could put a blanket ban on the "charity" drives you have over in the US where people can make Aliyah by proxy by funding the illegal settlemants (or in the case of the nuttier christians give money to recreate Israel so they can become Christians at the end of the world).

  19. #19
    Bopa Member Incongruous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two ceasefires ...

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    And how many people saw their relatives killed for no good reason? How many of these people will become militants?
    Ha! Does it matter! The mighty nation of Israel will simply declare war on Gaza again in a few years and kill them all!

    On a more serious note, the wave of suicide bombings this aburd conflict will create will help Israel in its demonisation of the Palestinians.

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