Rather Large Historical Error

[Boulis]

Hi all,

Have been out of commission for a long time (busy with work), and although I got a copy of
M2TW when it first came out, it is only recently that I've had a chance to actually play the game. Once again, a splendid job by CA, what a fun and absorbing time it's been!

I especially love the little historical asides as the campaign progresses, and it is because I love this game and series so much that I felt I should write something about a blatant error I caught in one of those asides. My first campaign was as Hungary and so I really didn't pay much attention to the event that triggers the discovery of the New World, but my second campaign was as Portugal and then I did notice the mistake.

I apologize if this has been mentioned in the few years I've been missing but Europeans (read: Columbus) did not sail west to prove the Earth was a sphere: this was common knowledge since Eratosthenes and the Greeks! Columbus actually miscalculated the estimated circumference of the Earth and thought a hypothetical trip west to Asia from Europe would have been much shorter than it actually was.

He got lucky and there was another continent in the way (something he never really swallowed) and so he lived and became famous, but if the Americas had not been there he would have perished in the ocean. This is, in any case, what his contemporaries though was to be his fate when he first set out.

The whole "sailed west to prove the Earth was round" meme is an outright myth fabricated by the American author Washington Irving.

Again love the game and the history, but this is basic CA.

Boulis

[Quintus.JC]

That's not the only historically unaccurate error present in the game, but still I didn't expect the game to be a documentry channel.

The one error I always fume about is the fact that the Mongols are mistakenly made into Muslims, what the heck!!!

The problem is that some of these errors are really elementry and basic, and what it seemed is that CA really could of made just a little bit of more effort to it. Such as the time in RTW: BI when the Visigoths were made into a steppe faction, they're barbarians!

[Noncommunist]

I think some of the mongols in the west such as the Golden Horde and the mongol state in Persia, eventually converted to Islam. I guess they didn't want to have the mongols undergo a religious change in the middle of the game.

[Jolt]

Columbus believed in the calculations of Marinus of Tyre, a phoenician. The calculations of Erasthotenes were not unanimously accepted. The council of D. João II had the best cartographers and seamen in the Western World, and his proposal to find the Indias through the West wasn't accepted because the council through its voyages through Africa already knew Erastothenes' calculations were correct.

[Fisherking]

I think some of the mongols in the west such as the Golden Horde and the mongol state in Persia, eventually converted to Islam. I guess they didn't want to have the mongols undergo a religious change in the middle of the game.

They would have to start states converting to protestants and undermining the pope if they started any conversions at all…

I am sure they wanted to avoid it.

[lars573]

The one error I always fume about is the fact that the Mongols are mistakenly made into Muslims, what the heck!!!

I seriously doubt that's a mistake. It's a time and resource management thing. Mongols need a religion, but they aren't one of the 3 made for the game (muslim and west/east Christian). They also aren't a playable faction so what's the point of coding an entirely new religion just for them. And one of their sub-groups does convert to Islam, eventually. So give them that faith, to save time and effort.

[Megas Methuselah]

Why didn'y they just give the Mongols the Pagan faith? That would have been easier. But can Pagans recruit priests/imams for the benefit of their own religion?

[Boulis]

Jolt you are correct about the reasons behind Columbus' massive miscalcualtion. However, he still assumed the Earth was round, as did Marinus before him. It is the "flat earth" myth that bothers me. I just see it as a massive historical error, especially since it is not that hard to look up stuff these days. (I could be mistaken that the trigger event for the New World implies a flat earth but I think not. If I am, however, I take it all back).

Maybe I am in error though because what is most surprising to me is that with all that research they did on other historical events for the game, such an egregious mistake would sneak through.

p.s. Why was this thread moved? Honestly, I thought about posting in this forum but rejected it because this is such a basic mistake that CA made I feel somebody should call/have called attention to it in the main forum. We're not talking armor types or spear points here, this is elementary history (not that that sort of stuff is not important in its own way but I don't expect that sort of thing to be common knowledge). In that vein, I am curious to know if anyone has found anything just as blatant?

[HopAlongBunny]

In that vein, I am curious to know if anyone has found anything just as blatant?

Canon toting elephants? Its hard to see how horse artillery can be considered a tech advance in Empires when compared to the lethality and mobility of these babies :p

[lars573]

Why didn'y they just give the Mongols the Pagan faith? That would have been easier. But can Pagans recruit priests/imams for the benefit of their own religion?

Thing is M2TW didn't have a pagan faith (closest you came was Heresey) until the expansion added it to the Teutonic campagin.

[edyzmedieval]

Why didn'y they just give the Mongols the Pagan faith? That would have been easier. But can Pagans recruit priests/imams for the benefit of their own religion?

Mongols later on were Muslims. Tamerlane's Timurids were all Muslims, and himself was a devout Muslim. I agree it's not historically correct in the beginning, but think of the gameplay issues.

[KingKnudthebloodthirsty]

The Mongols werent Muslim, or at least until very late in history! They were in fact friendlier to Christians than Muslims and the Crusaders used cheered the Mongols on against the Muslims of Egypt as a last resort of maintaining their hold on Levant against Egypt. During the Sack of Baghdad in 1258, the Mongols were allowed to kill rape assault all they want against Muslims, but Christians were spared, seen as local allies.

In SS, the Mongol thing is completely off. When Martok (or Monk, i get confused between these two) played as the mongols in SS 6.1, he jihaded against the christians. He posted his screenies at pics and history of your empire thread. That is TOTALLY off. If i made that mod, i might have still let them be muslim, but they wont be able to build anything religious structures and units, join jihads, but their religious unrest would be eliminated or drastically cut, as they were tolerant to all religions. Chingis Khan himself approved all religions but didnt believed anyone of them is completely right.

[Mangudai]

Eric the Red and Leif Ericson sailed west to look for new lands.

[Megas Methuselah]

Thing is M2TW didn't have a pagan faith (closest you came was Heresey) until the expansion added it to the Teutonic campagin.

I don't know what you're talking about, boy. M2TW does have the Pagan faith. It's quite popular in the eastern baltic and the Americas, where it's the "official" religion of the Aztecs.

[Incongruous]

The Golden Horde, I believe, was Christian and at one point offered to help Christendom rid themselves of the Muslims in a pincer attack from both east and west, it was rejected.

[KingKnudthebloodthirsty]

The Golden Horde, I believe, was Christian and at one point offered to help Christendom rid themselves of the Muslims in a pincer attack from both east and west, it was rejected.

Yes. Many mongols were nestorian christians See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Mongol_alliance
And yes, though they maintained good relations, they had trouble w/ cooperation. I find out also that the Mongols were originally shamanists, a religion common Central Asian nomads, so it won't be wrong to make them pagan. They were also buddhists, not surprisingly since of their closeness to China and Tibet.

[lars573]

I don't know what you're talking about, boy. M2TW does have the Pagan faith. It's quite popular in the eastern baltic and the Americas, where it's the "official" religion of the Aztecs.

No there isn't, in the game. I investigated it a few times by conquering Lithuania. No paganism, just Heresey.