Original Faction names

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

With RTWv1.5 (or was it v1.3?) came the possibility to change the internal names of factions. Since so many files already referenced the internal faction names, nobody wanted to go back and change all of the mixed up internal names for EB. The same patch also gave the possibility to use the senate faction (using the senate factions in previous versions had caused crashes). Since the Sab'yn faction was started from scratch at the point when changing factions was allowed, and more importantly to avoid any hardcoded associated with "romans_senate", all internal references to Sab'yn are "saba".

[HayGuy]

An old arab dude I work with (Syrian) said that Saba is probably or related to Sheba? Is that true?

[Macilrille]

Zuesi, by installing this mod, you agree to read more history. I strongly encourage that. That combined with EB will show you a better picture of how things was (EB is doing a good job of it already, but sort of requires you to have the basics of ancient history already in place, which it seems you do not. You could start with Mc'Kay's "History of the World" ( I think my own is the last that was merely called History of Western Society), to get a good overview of it all from start till now.

I would encourage;

1. Drop TV History programs until you have a firm idea of history, read books instead, and play EB.

2. Use logic, if a Faction is placed more or less on map where a faction in Vanilla was placed, it is likely the same.

3. If you are still in doubt, Google and Wiki are your friends.

Good luck and have fun, you are about to enter a world so intriguing, complex and interesting that it surpasses your imagination, our own history, you will be lost and captivated forever. I wish you all the best in it :-)

[Dayve]

Egypt are the Ptolemaioi.

Alexander the Great conquered Egypt and it was a part of his empire. When he died his empire was torn up between squabbling generals. Ptolemy took Egypt, therefore it is called Ptolemaioi.

Egypt became culturally similar to Greece due to the fact that it was now owned by Greeks and was no longer ruled by pharaohs.

The same is true for Arche Seleukia and Baktria. Arche Seleukia is a chunk of land that was conquered by Alexander the Great. When he died, that chunk of land fell into the hands of one of Alexander's generals and became its own nation, seperate to the other chunk of his empire, Egypt, which was claimed by another of his generals.

Baktria has Greek culture because it was also conquered by Alexander the Great, but in 250BC i believe, Baktria rebelled from Seleukid rule and declared its independence.

Like i said in another thread... Read read read! Read everything. Alexander the Great took Greek culture to the ends of the earth. That's why most of the eastern half of the map has Greek culture and Greek generals... They're Greeks that settled there when Alexander the Great (a Greek himself) conquered them!

[Macilrille]

I am not certain the Greeks of Alexander's own time would approve of your description of him as Greek, to them he was but a barbarian with a sheen of Hellenism as far as I know. You are very right indeed Alexander's conquest spread Greek culture and thinking all the way to India, called Hellenism. Note that perhaps the greatest mathematician ever, Achimedes, lived in Syracouse, Alexandria became the centre of learning of the (Western) world, etc, etc... That is Hellenism, in the Hellenistic world a larger number of people learned the Greek way of thinking and thus the exchange of scientific and philosophical thought got a framework to include more people. Thus gaining more.

[the man with no name]

I am not certain the Greeks of Alexander's own time would approve of your description of him as Greek, to them he was but a barbarian with a sheen of Hellenism as far as I know. You are very right indeed Alexander's conquest spread Greek culture and thinking all the way to India, called Hellenism. Note that perhaps the greatest mathematician ever, Achimedes, lived in Syracouse, Alexandria became the centre of learning of the (Western) world, etc, etc... That is Hellenism, in the Hellenistic world a larger number of people learned the Greek way of thinking and thus the exchange of scientific and philosophical thought got a framework to include more people. Thus gaining more.

Agreed. Alexander the Great was Macedonian and therefore not greek. And alexander became the pharoah of eygpt 2. YOU MUST PLAY MORE EB OR ELSE!!!

[Ludens]

Egypt are the Ptolemaioi.

Alexander the Great conquered Egypt and it was a part of his empire. When he died his empire was torn up between squabbling generals. Ptolemy took Egypt, therefore it is called Ptolemaioi.

[Nitpicking-mode on] Egypt was still called Aegyptus in EB's time. Ptolemaioi refers to the dynasty, not their possessions. It also isn't entirely correct to say that Egypt became Greek: the Ptolemaioi were not very successful at importing Greek settles (at least, compared to the Seleucids) and the original Egyptians mostly clung to the old ways. In fact, the Ptolemaioi kings went partially native.

To a lesser extent, this also applies to the Seleucids and Bactrians. They had a Hellenic ruling class and their subjects were influenced by Greek culture, but the population never became Greek, despite the presence of large colonies of Greek migrants. Nor was the cultural exchange entirely one-sided.

I am not certain the Greeks of Alexander's own time would approve of your description of him as Greek, to them he was but a barbarian with a sheen of Hellenism as far as I know.

It depends upon who you would ask. The Athenian orator Demosthenes considered the Macedonians and their king as semi-barbarians. However, one of his political rivals called the Macedonians "fellow Greeks". Whether or not the Macedonians were proper Greeks, their culture was certainly Greek (or Hellenistic, if you want to be exact). Once the Macedonians generals were in charge of most of the civilized world, the Macedonians-not-Greeks argument muted somewhat: if you can't beat them, join them, the clever Greeks must have thought. Still, there was quite a bit of rivalry between the "proper" Greeks, as the original inventors of the culture, and those that were responsible for expanding it to include most of the civilized world. In EB, this is reflected by Macedonian faction members becoming "mishellens" or "pro-hellenes", depending on their attitude to the "original" Greeks.

[Dayve]

[Nitpicking-mode on] Egypt was still called Aegyptus in EB's time. Ptolemaioi refers to the dynasty, not their possessions. It also isn't entirely correct to say that Egypt became Greek: the Ptolemaioi were not very successful at importing Greek settles (at least, compared to the Seleucids) and the original Egyptians mostly clung to the old ways. In fact, the Ptolemaioi kings went partially native.

To a lesser extent, this also applies to the Seleucids and Bactrians. They had a Hellenic ruling class and their subjects were influenced by Greek culture, but the population never became Greek, despite the presence of large colonies of Greek migrants. Nor was the cultural exchange entirely one-sided

Oh i know... I've only recently started learning ancient history, EB awoke a dormant fascination for ancient history within me, so most people here know infinitely more than i do. I was just giving the guy a brief history of that area of the map... hopefully he'll follow suit and raid amazon everytime he has some spare cash for books on the subject like i do every week.

I know that when i first started playing RTW i had no idea what the Seleucid empire was or who made it, and i didn't even think twice about Egypt being pharaoh-ized still. In England, all they ever teach us about history is how Rome was good and the light and civilized an otherwise totally barbaric, savage and cultureless world, and about how awesome ancient Egypt was.

Heh, imagine that... Ancient Roman propaganda is still as strong today as it was 2000 years ago. Hate them all you like, but that's damn impressive.

[Megas Methuselah]

So wheres Egypt?

Ah, don't worry, little bro! All those factions are still in the same place in EB as they were in RTW vanilla. Egypt is still in Egypt, Carthage still in north-western Africa, Seleucids still in mid-east, Romans still in Italy, Gauls still in Gaul, etc.

The only difference is the name changes and unit rosters of the various factions for realism and historical accuracy. Don't make it any harder than that for yourself.

Heh, imagine that... Ancient Roman propaganda is still as strong today as it was 2000 years ago. Hate them all you like, but that's damn impressive.

I wanted to make clear that, just because their rulers became Hellenic, not everyone donned togas and took an interest in philosophy.

[annoying mode on] Is not the toga a Roman/Italian garment?

[Ludens]

[annoying mode on] Is not the toga a Roman/Italian garment?

I know that when i first started playing RTW i had no idea what the Seleucid empire was or who made it, and i didn't even think twice about Egypt being pharaoh-ized still. In England, all they ever teach us about history is how Rome was good and the light and civilized an otherwise totally barbaric, savage and cultureless world, and about how awesome ancient Egypt was.

It was pretty much the same when I went to school here. Most of my knowledge about the classical age also comes from EB. Still, I get the impression that historical eduction is improving in this country. The analysis of Rome, and other parts of history, has become more critical. Now if only the government would stop trying to make education more efficient .

[the man with no name]

Like i said in another thread... Read read read! Read everything. Alexander the Great took Greek culture to the ends of the earth. That's why most of the eastern half of the map has Greek culture and Greek generals... They're Greeks that settled there when Alexander the Great (a Greek himself) conquered them!

That's why he's called 'The Great'.

[Wausser]

An old arab dude I work with (Syrian) said that Saba is probably or related to Sheba? Is that true?

Sheba is the English name for it I belive, since there's a music composition with the name Belkis, regina di Saba, while the English name is Belkis, queen of Sheba

[Ludens]

Sheba is the English name for it I belive, since there's a music composition with the name Belkis, regina di Saba, while the English name is Belkis, queen of Sheba

I can't find the original thread, but it has been discussed on this forum. Saba may have been Biblical Sheba, but we don't know. IIRC some scholars think that Sheba was located in Ethiopia. Then again, Saba had a major cultural impact on Ethiopia, and may have ruled it at some point.

[Macilrille]

Ludens, that is why I said, I am not certain. Hell even here in Denmark we can hardly agree to who is Danish and not, and what it takes to be a Dane (in our cultural encounter with lots of Middle Eastern immigrants and the EU) thus it would probably be hard for us to define Greek, Hellenes, etc, it also shifted over time. 450 BC "Macedon = barbarians, 350 BC, Macedon = hmmm... "they are becoming civilised-ish". Under Alex, "Macedon = Greek, after Alex "Macedonia is different, but not barbarian?... dunno, I expect each individual Greek to have his own idea and them to change over time.

You also said "[Nitpicking-mode on] Egypt was still called Aegyptus in EB's time. Ptolemaioi refers to the dynasty, not their possessions. It also isn't entirely correct to say that Egypt became Greek: the Ptolemaioi were not very successful at importing Greek settles (at least, compared to the Seleucids) and the original Egyptians mostly clung to the old ways. In fact, the Ptolemaioi kings went partially native.

To a lesser extent, this also applies to the Seleucids and Bactrians. They had a Hellenic ruling class and their subjects were influenced by Greek culture, but the population never became Greek, despite the presence of large colonies of Greek migrants. Nor was the cultural exchange entirely one-sided."

But that is always the case is it not? Were the Normans French? Viking? Something else combining the two? Were the "Anglo-Saxons" of 1066, Anglo-Saxon, Danish? Something else? Some merger of the three?

Etc., etc.,

Daneaxes rule though :-)

[Ludens]

Ludens, that is why I said, I am not certain. Hell even here in Denmark we can hardly agree to who is Danish and not, and what it takes to be a Dane (in our cultural encounter with lots of Middle Eastern immigrants and the EU) thus it would probably be hard for us to define Greek, Hellenes, etc, it also shifted over time.

Indeed. I didn't know what you meant when you wrote that you weren't certain, so I added that the Greeks themselves weren't certain either. Anyway, I do recall that Demosthenes only called the Macedonians "semi-barbarian", so apparently even he admitted they were close to the "proper" Greeks.

But that is always the case is it not? Were the Normans French? Viking? Something else combining the two? Were the "Anglo-Saxons" of 1066, Anglo-Saxon, Danish? Something else? Some merger of the three?

Certainly, that's why it's nitpicking . I wanted to make clear that, just because their rulers became Hellenic, not everyone donned togas and took an interest in philosophy.