Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

[Tribesman]

ok tribes. here ya go- her words exactly as he sent them to me:

Is that like the professor who told you of the existance of a non-existant law ?

So from the Weisenthal center concerning holocaust survivors

about three-quarters of them returned to their former homelands.

Former homelands eh not Palestine

Jews from western Europe (France, Holland, Belgium, Denmark, Norway), Hungary (the largest group), Rumania, and Czechoslovakia were eager to be repatriated so that they could look for their families, reclaim their possessions, and reestablish themselves.

Yep not Palestine then .
But its OK I understand your confusion , what you and your profesor is doing is ignoring the actual survivors of the holocaust but then adding those who later fled from the communists to make up the numbers so they sound better .

[Hooahguy]

Is that like the professor who told you of the existance of a non-existant law ?

So from the Weisenthal center concerning holocaust survivors

no, not the same professor who told me about the existent law.
btw, can you post a link to the weisental center saying that?

claiming that Professor Lipstadt is lying is pretty serious. do you even know who she is?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Hooah, Tribes:

Both of you go to time out for a minute. BOTH of you are citing reasonably credible sources that have different estimates of the disposition of Jewish displaced persons. Getting offended or mocking, in either direction, at this point is poor argument.

Either:

1. Come up with DIFFERENT sources to corroborate your assertions, or

2. Go back to the primary data sources and count the results yourself, or

3. Agree to disagree on this point and find some other issue upon which to lambast one another.

[Furunculus]

that is the second of Tribesmans debating techniques;

which is to immediately google a contrary source in search of a piece of 'dirt', which is then advertised across the forum with magnificent disdain in an attempt to whitewash the entire issue to the majority who have not heard of the source.

the first is to launch a barrage of laughing smileys to create the impression that whatever was said was so ridiculous that no one else need trouble themselves with looking at the facts themselves, for fear that they might reach a dissenting opinion.

and the third is to bring obtuse to an art form by arguing around every central theme with the aim of creating a cloud of negative conjecture that completely obscures the position that tribesman wishes to suppress, displayed this evening in fact.

quite why he goes to all the effort i shall probably never know.

[Tribesman]

Come up with DIFFERENT sources to corroborate your assertions,

Well I was going to go with the jewish virtual library , but they use Wiesenthal .
Then I considered getting a random list of survivors and seeing where they ended up ...blimey they get everywhere don't they
Perhaps I could go with Ami Izeroff as his site is very balanced and one of the most comprehensive on the foundation and development of Israel .
UNRRA isn't a bad idea either ....
Or I could go with a proffesor who rants that carter didn't put the nazis in his book about problems in Israel .

[Fragony]

Tribes likes to play it dirty and effective it is

[Tribesman]

the first is to launch a barrage of laughing smileys to create the impression that whatever was said was so ridiculous that no one else need trouble themselves with looking at the facts themselves, for fear that they might reach a dissenting opinion.

Actually it is the opposite , one reason why I rarely post links is so that people can look up the facts themselves .

[LittleGrizzly]

I don't see what difference the holocaust makes to all this anyway, it was over 60 years ago, if anything holding on to such fear or paranoia would likely more destroy you or cause other bad things rather than help out...

[Tribesman]

I don't see what difference the holocaust makes to all this anyway

Because its the key card , just as the shout of "anti-semitism" goes up any time anything bad is said about Israel even if the people who are saying it are Jewish ,the holocaust works on the lines that anytime someone says Israel is doing nasty stuff the defense is "but look at the Nazis" .

[Fragony]

Hamas wants to do the same as the nazi's did, they have to kill them wherever they find them, so that even the trees and stones they are hiding behind will cry out 'a jew!'. They are so blinded by hate and so paralyzed by their primitive bloodlust, that doesn't excuse them from firing rockets and missing or praying five times a day instead of growing crops.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Actually it is the opposite , one reason why I rarely post links is so that people can look up the facts themselves .

But links ENCOURAGE others to look up facts for themselves. Dumping the entire magazine or article into a quote box here just encourages folks to skip the information, so I understand why you don't do that. Linkees are NOT evil.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Because its the key card , just as the shout of "anti-semitism" goes up any time anything bad is said about Israel even if the people who are saying it are Jewish ,the holocaust works on the lines that anytime someone says Israel is doing nasty stuff the defense is "but look at the Nazis" .

Pardon me, but did you just answer a point directly without parsiflage? I believe you did. This also justified your line of argument. Kudos!

[Tribesman]

Pardon me, but did you just answer a point directly without parsiflage?

Bollox .

But links ENCOURAGE others to look up facts for themselves.

Do they ?
How frequently do topics have people ranting on about a linked article when they havn't even read the article in the link ?
Or in this case how can someone write ....those are her words and i swear by them. ..when they clearly havn't even looked at the words they are swearing by .
There are other estimates ...errrrr a definative answer then ?
what is clear ......It’s hard to know .....we could never get a clear count
seems like a lot of contradictions to swear by doesn't it .

they have to kill them wherever they find them, so that even the trees and stones they are hiding behind will cry out 'a jew!'.

Hamas wants to do the same as the nazi's did

No Frag the Nazis wanted a thousand year reich run by what they deemed as superpeople , what you are quoting has been dealt with many many times before , its about the end of the world , so to quote one of the horsemen of the apocolypse .
Im a getting tired of this armageddon .

They are so blinded by hate

Says Mr. its the muslims muslims muslims

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Bollox .

It's reassuring to note that there are SOME constants in this cherry blossom universe of ours.

[Fragony]

Says Mr. its the muslims muslims muslims

That is what you say I say, but you can't just decide I said something it doesn't work that way, I have to put it down first. It's your mind playing tricks on you Tribes.

[Furunculus]

an interesting article on what is proportionate force, and how that might apply to israel:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...603508,00.html

it isn't conclusive either way, but stands as a discussion point.

[Hooahguy]

yo tribesman- you still havent provided that link. ive searched the weisenthal center, but find nothing yet. still looking. i suspect that you are only quoting half of what the center said.
btw here is what the Jewish Virtual Library says: survivors

gee- i guess this puts to shame your argument that most survivors went home:

When people tried to return to their homes from camps or hiding places, they found that, in many cases, their homes had been looted or taken over by others.

Returning home was also dangerous. After the war, anti-Jewish riots broke out in several Polish cities. The largest anti-Jewish pogrom took place in July 1946 in Kielce, a city in southeastern Poland. When 150 Jews returned to the city, people living there feared that hundreds more would come back to reclaim their houses and belongings. Age-old antisemitic myths, such as Jews' ritual murders of Christians, arose once again. After a rumor spread that Jews had killed a Polish boy to use his blood in religious rituals, a mob attacked the group of survivors. The rioters killed 41 people and wounded 50 more. News of the Kielce pogrom spread rapidly, and Jews realized that there was no future for them in Poland.

and when i said "i swear by them" i meant that i swear that she said that, which is rare because jews arent really supposed to swear unless they really mean it.

more to come.

[Fragony]

More on the hero's of the socialist party.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057874.html

[Seamus Fermanagh]

More on the hero's of the socialist party.

Heroes to which socialist party? They're not all one big happy socialist party...despite some of the official platform planks that assert this.

Your link to Haaratz [sic?] is fine, but as a source it should be noted that it is not (nor does it claim to be) journalistically impartial.

[Fragony]

Ours,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23bM58hhFk8

[Jolt]

1) so does israel- they actually have a lot of nukes.
2) have you heard of the Sampson Theory (if i have the name correct)? its the theory that if everyone attacked israel and israel was about to be destroyed, all the israeli nukes would be launched to pre-set coordinates around the globe, like teharan, damascus, cairo, and god knows what other cities. but its just a theory, so....
3) sarcasm is in green, remember?

1) So?
2) All the better for the USA. That way all the Arab States would support a USA nuking attack. >_>
3) Eh? As I'm sure you've guessed it, my post is a joke. But it'd surely end the Arab-Israeli conflict. :P

[Tribesman]

gee- i guess this puts to shame your argument that most survivors went home

Errrrr....not in the slightest

Look...in Kielce, a city in southeastern Poland. When 150 Jews returned to the city, people living there feared that hundreds more would come back to reclaim their houses and belongings.
And that somehow putsto shame ....Jews from western Europe (France, Holland, Belgium, Denmark, Norway), Hungary (the largest group), Rumania, and Czechoslovakia were eager to be repatriated so that they could look for their families, reclaim their possessions, and reestablish themselves.
Any mention of Poland there ?
Nope
So you provided an example of what happened to approx 150 people out of a couple of hundred thousand .
So since the Hungarian Jews were the biggest group of survivors could you tell me how big the group was of Polish Jews given that the Nazis really had it in for them as they were not only Jewish but Polish too ?
Also apart from the pre war actions in Germany , Austria and Czecoslovakia the Nazis were in Poland longer than anywhere else wern't they .

[Tribesman]

Ours,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23bM58hhFk8

Errrr...you have me very very confused there Frag , if bommel condemns violence and Hamas then how are Hamas his heroes ?
I am sure it must make sense somehow , perhaps people have to trip to that alternate reality you reside in so it makes perfect sense .

[Fragony]

Errrr...you have me very very confused there Frag , if bommel condemns violence and Hamas then how are Hamas his heroes ?
I am sure it must make sense somehow , perhaps people have to trip to that alternate reality you reside in so it makes perfect sense .

He doesn't condemn violence, that's just what he said afterwards when his call for intifada got him in a little trouble. Nobody takes it serious, and the head of the party didn't condemn it, just said she would have done it otherwise. That is politics for 'I agree'. He always condemned all violence he cowardly claimed lol what a hypocrite, not a word when rockets fell on Israel. And let's not forget the simple fact that he is a member of the notoriously anti-Israeli socialist party, not very surprising that most neo-nazi's vote for the SP, also very close buddies of the international socialists, and you know who that are don't you.

[Hooahguy]

tribes, you still havent provided a link.....
EDIT: found it.

[Idaho]

you are jewish?

Enough of one to qualify for Israeli citizenship.

[Don Corleone]

I'm curious folks, and I'm taking an informal poll, tangentially related to the thread topic. We have a 'usual suspects' list of those who play apologist for the IDF versus those who play apologist for Hamas. While the degree of defense (and denial) varies among members on each side, at the end of the day, I believe the lines are pretty set.

Normally in politics, 1/3 argues with the other 1/3 for mindshare of the undecided 1/3 in the middle. On this particular issue, there is no middle, and it's rare, if not strictly hypothetical, for somebody's views to shift on this issue.

I know Idaho and Tribesman are always going to agree with the Palestinians. And I know CR & Hooahguy are going to come down on the side of the Israelis. There's never going to be any deviation from that predetermined result.

So, like Sisyphus with his rock, we roll this debate out about once a month. I'm as guilty as anyone. But I find myself asking, myself and all of you, why do we continue to debate this? Do any of us really honestly believe we're not in the Verdun of backroom conversations? Do any of you have any hope of climbing out of the trench and advancing, or of evolving your own line of thought, for that matter?

I'm serious about this... I'm really curious regardless of your stance, whether you have any marginal hope or belief that you might actually influence anyone's views on this issue, and if so, what supports you in that delusion?

Please respond to this post of Don's in the thread created for this discussion. Thanks. SF

[Don Corleone]

No need, I'll start a new thread, with an actual poll.

[LittleGrizzly]

let me be clear about something. i am both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian. i want a Palestinian country to live peacefully side-by-side with Israel. i do not want the destruction of the Palestinian people. i want them to live and prosper, but live peacefully.

I think pretty much everyone who debates the issue wants all you said for both people... unless we have anyone here who literally does hate jews or muslims (which i don't think we do...) ... with the only slight variation being some people prefer the idea of 1 state instead of the 2 state solution...

The pro palestinian and pro israeli labels are simply convenient ways of identifying the different sides, i describe myself as pro-palestinian just because of where i usually end up in the agument but i am by no means a fan of hamas in any way... and being 'pro-palestinian' doesn't make me anti-israeli, i have never met an israeli but i would have no problems with him/her if i did...

[Tribesman]

not very surprising that most neo-nazi's vote for the SP

Fragony you really are out of the loop since your old "lets beat up immigrants" days , why not visit some of those nice dutch neo-nazi websites and see how happy the scum there are that the Israelis are confronting the muslim menace .
You will see Frag that they have the same "muslims gonna getya" line of errrrrrr......"thought" that you exhibit .

I know Idaho and Tribesman are always going to agree with the Palestinians.

Its not that I agree with the Palestinians Don , its just that those who are most vocal in support of Israel are usually the ones with gaping great holes in their arguements which are easier to rip apart .