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Thread: OOC Thread

  1. #1
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Test Game OOC Thread

    Announcing an exciting and radically new WotS-style PBEM!

    The purpose of V&V is to revive the basic concept found in the KotR test game, but taken a step further and hopefully more successful! Like the KotR test this is not intended to be a full-fledged game, all though it could last much longer than previous test games if people are having fun.

    V&V will be very different from other games of it's type. Each player will control an avatar who, although part of a Kingdom/Empire, has a personal demesne which he controls like his own mini-faction. You'll have your own personal income, your own armies, navies and agents which you pay from your own treasury, and you're free to work in conjunction with your fellow countrymen or treat your vassalage like a mere formality. They'll be no Chancellor, since nothing belongs to the Kingdom as a whole. I'll be advancing the turns myself at regular intervals. Also, we'll be using Lands to Conqueror Gold, which requires the Kingdoms Expansion pack.

    I've got the rules written down, but I'm going to sleep on it and reread them tomorrow to make sure I've got everything, as well as get them better organized on paper. I'm looking for two to four people to join me in testing these rules, any more than that will have to wait until generals become available ingame.

    Anyways, feel free to ask any questions if you're interested! I'll give a more detailed explanation tomorrow, but I'll be happy to answer any questions in the meantime!
    Last edited by Cecil XIX; 03-22-2009 at 22:28.

  2. #2
    The Search for Beefy Member TheFlax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    I'm in! Looks very interesting and I'm curious to see how you intend to make it work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    TheFlax needs to die on principle. No townie should even be that scummy.

  3. #3
    Prince Louis of France (KotF) Member Ramses II CP's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    Looks like I'm going to have to buy Kingdoms at last, eh?

    Is LTC Gold compatible with the Steam version of Kingdoms anyone?


  4. #4
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramses II CP View Post
    Looks like I'm going to have to buy Kingdoms at last, eh?

    Is LTC Gold compatible with the Steam version of Kingdoms anyone?

    Evidently you can, as the LTC installation instructions say "If you have Steam you will need to use the Medieval II Launcher to run the mod."

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlax View Post
    I'm in! Looks very interesting and I'm curious to see how you intend to make it work.
    The key is the add_money console command. Aside from giving each player a 'King's Purse' all the income and expenses will be what they are in the game, so as long as I know what they *should* be at the start of each turn I can make it so, without having to worry about the inscrutable methods that Medieval II uses.
    Last edited by Cecil XIX; 01-25-2009 at 22:28.

  5. #5
    Prince Louis of France (KotF) Member Ramses II CP's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    Good, so if I don't get a chance to pick up a copy at a retail joint I can always just use steam. Count me in then.


  6. #6
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    Hmmm...count me in for the test.
    V&V RIP Helmut Becker, Duke of Bavaria.



    Come to the Throne Room for hotseats and TW rpgs!

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  7. #7
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    Count me in as well

  8. #8
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    Excellent, we've got five people! This is the most number of people we can accomodate at the beginning, so we're going to be playing as the Kingdom of France in the early era campaign. You all can go and reserve one of the starting generals now, with the exception that I've reserved King Philip Capet for myself.

  9. #9
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    As a matter of fact, (sorry for the double post, but I want people to know there's new information without viewing the thread) I'm going to post the save we'll be starting with.

    Vassals&Valor-1080

    Even though I haven't posted the rules yet, once you reserve an avatar you can use this save to look at the starting situation and determine you how you want to spend your money et. cetera.

    The avatar you chose will start with the settlement he is in and all the soldiers in his stack. So remember that the amount of money you gain at the start of the next turn will be equal to the income of your city minus the upkeep of your troops, plus 250 bonus florins. (750 if you're the prince). You all start with 1000 florins in your treasury, except for the first person to reserve the Prince. He gets 2000.

  10. #10
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    Can I reserve the Prince then?
    V&V RIP Helmut Becker, Duke of Bavaria.



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  11. #11
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    Quick question - is it safe to install Kingdoms, the 1.5 patch, and play LotR?

  12. #12
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    I think so, before I had to reformat my comp a bit ago I was playing LotR with 1.5. with no adverse effects.
    V&V RIP Helmut Becker, Duke of Bavaria.



    Come to the Throne Room for hotseats and TW rpgs!

    Kermit's made a TWS2 guide? Oh, the other frog....

  13. #13
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    Quote Originally Posted by YLC View Post
    Quick question - is it safe to install Kingdoms, the 1.5 patch, and play LotR?
    I'm running LotR and Kingdoms from the same install, so yeah. Don't remember what order I installed them in though, or if that even matters.

  14. #14
    The Search for Beefy Member TheFlax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    I'll take Guillemot de Lyon.

    And so I would get Dijon, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    TheFlax needs to die on principle. No townie should even be that scummy.

  15. #15
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    I'll take Prince Louis.
    V&V RIP Helmut Becker, Duke of Bavaria.



    Come to the Throne Room for hotseats and TW rpgs!

    Kermit's made a TWS2 guide? Oh, the other frog....

  16. #16
    Prince Louis of France (KotF) Member Ramses II CP's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    I'll take whomever is left over after everyone else picks. Going to pick up Kingdoms tomorrow and install it.


  17. #17
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    All right, here are the rules. Up until the first time we pause to discuss the rules, whenever there is a question about the rules, I will simple clarify it myself and adjust the wording of the rules unilaterally. After the first time we discuss how the rules are working, any subsequent queries or disputes about the rules will be solved immidiately by myself. The issue will then be raised again and put to vote during the next rules disscussion automatically if there are opossing ideas.

    The game is now officially begun. Since this is the first turn, and everybody may need some time to get used to the rules, the current turn will end at 0:00 GMT on Friday, Jan. 30th. I will also consider extending the turn if anybody's having trouble, but only for the first five turns.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Vassals & Valor

    I. Introduction and Purpose

    1. Vassals & Valor is test PBEM, aimed at taking WotS-style PBEMs in a new direction. It's purpose is to test and develop mechanics for players owning property and having their own personal finances. In order to facilitate this, many concepts have been removed for simplicity.
    2. This game will be played on Lands to Conqueror Gold, Hard Campaign, Very Hard Battles, Manage All Settlements, Show CPU Moves, Battle Timer On.
    3. Each ship can only carry two units of soldiers.
    4. Each player will role-play a general of the chosen faction. This game will not be modded, so until we have a level-3 stables there will be no RGBs. Adoptions and MoHs will be decided by the benefactor. Princess will marry a groom chosen by their father. If a new player wants a general, he will have to wait until one is available. Once it becomes possible to train RGBs, a new player can chose to have one recruited for him at no cost to any player. A new player is always free to chose whether or not he wants a general that’s available to him.
    5. There will be an OOC Thread, a thread for rule and the taking and uploading of saves, and IC ‘Faction Leader’s Council’, a Battles & Stories thread, and an SOT thread.


    II. Settlements and Income

    1. Each player’s avatar may own one or more settlements, which are considered their property.
    2. When a settlement is conquered, the General in charge of the Army that took it has the right to name it’s Lord. The General in charge of the Army also gains all income from seizing settlements, and can choose the settlement’s fate.
    3. The General in charge of the Army pays for and receives money from ransoming. He determines the fate of enemy soldiers captured in battle, as well as whether or not to pay for troops that are captured from the army under his command.
    4. Each player receives the income from their settlements into their own personal treasury, as well as any money gained from destroying buildings in those settlements.
    5. Each player must pay for the upkeep of troops and ships under their control from their own personal treasury.
    6. Each player gains a bonus income each turn by virtue of their position. For the Faction Leader, this is the in-game king’s purse. For the Faction Heir, it is one-half the in-game King’s Purse. For all other players it is 250 florins.
    7. No player has to pay for the income of his personal bodyguard.
    8. When missions are given to the faction, the player who owns the army/navy/agent that completed the mission gets the reward.
    9. The player’s money for the upcoming turn shall be determined by the following formula: (Money at start of current turn) – (upkeep and spending for current turn) + (income from assets for a current turn) = Money at start of next turn
    10. To reiterate, the income and upkeep a player has at any given turn is added/removed at the beginning of the next turn.
    11. The settlements under a players control are referred to as their ‘demesne’. A player must designate one of the settlements in their ‘demesne’ as their capital. This is where their treasury is stored, and it *can* be taken in PVP or lost to the AI factions!
    12. The tax rates of all settlements must be set to ‘normal’ at all times, except when an avatar is present in the settlement at the end of a turn.
    13. Any lord has the privilege of setting a ‘scutage’, or a tax on his vassals as payment in exchange for his protection. This can be defined as a flat rate or a percentage of their income, it can be the same for every vassal or different for each one of them, or any other term that the Faction Leader can come up with.
    14. Any player can gift a settlement to new player in exchange for the new player swearing fealty to his benefactor.
    15. An oath of fealty is two-way contact between lord and vassal. The Lord is expected to offer protection to his vassal and recognize that the settlement(s) is his vassal’s property. The vassal in turn is expected to fight for his lord upon request, as well as pay whatever scutage his lord requires of him.
    16. At the start of the game, the King is a lord and all other players are his vassals. Over time the King can create more vassals by granting tracks of land and his own vassals can create their own vassals the same way.
    17. Vassals in service to the King are known as Dukes. Vassals not in service to the King are Counts.


    III. How the game is run.
    1. There is no Chancellor in Vassals & Valor, since there is nothing that belongs to the “Kingdom” as a whole; everything belongs to one of the players.
    2. Each turn lasts 48-72 hours. I will post the time at which each turn ends. Regardless of when I take the save to advance the turn, I will take the last save to be uploaded before the deadline.
    3. During a turn players may take the save to move their soldiers and spend their money. When a player spends money immediately, such as when building watchtowers, forts and recruiting mercenaries, he must list the transaction and how much it cost when he returns the save.
    4. There is no Senate/Diet/Magnuara in Vassals & Valor. However, ever fifth turn we will discuss the rules and how they are working. When the fifth turn’s 48-hours are up, I will post a poll asking players whether further play is needed to determine the validity of the rule system or whether we should stop playing and do an AAR.
    5. Players can barter with each other with every resource that they have. Any agreements that have long-lasting terms, such as troops on loan for a limited time or payment stretched over a given timeframe, must be posted in the SOT thread by both parties.
    6. If a player is going to to be away IRL for a period of time, his avatar can appoint another avatar as a steward to watch over his demesne. Although presumably necessitated by OOC reasons, this is an IC position. The Lord who is going away must specify in his SOT thread which powers the Steward has access to, such as whether how much access to the treasury the Steward has, whether the Steward can use the soldiers of the away lord, whether the Steward can alter the build queues, etc.
    7. Whenever it is mentioned in these rules that a player has the right to gain something, make a decision, or receive a benefit or reward he can choose give portions of his rewards or share his decision-making. Similarly, whenever a player is required to pay for something he can always share this payment with other players, presuming he can find someone to agree to it. Any standing agreements must be noted in all parties SOT thread.


    IV. Military Forces/Agents
    1. Every stack in the game is owned by one of the players.
    2. Battles can only be fought by a player whose avatar is part of the battle. If there are no avatars present, the battle will be autoresolved unless the owner of the stack previously issued an order to retreat upon contact.
    3. The General in charge of the Army is determined by unanimous vote of the players present in the army. If unanimity cannot be reached, the General in charge of the Army is whichever player the game places in charge
    4. Whenever multiple stacks with multiple owners are merged in order to fight a battle, the ownership of each unit will be written down and posted so as to keep track.
    5. Players can loan, gift, sell, or agree to raise regiments to/for other players.
    6. With the exception of diplomats, each player can recruit their own agents for their own use. In the case of merchants and priests, which can only be recruited in limited numbers, each player cannot recruit more than his fair share. However, it is possible for player to trade/gift their fair shares to other players.
    7. Diplomats can only be recruited by the Faction Leader.


  18. #18
    The Search for Beefy Member TheFlax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    A questions and a clarification:

    Rule II-4 states: "Each player receives the income from their settlements into their own personal treasury, as well as any money gained from destroying buildings in those settlements."

    Is our starting amount of money 0 or something else? (I assume the income is received at the end of turn)


    Also,

    Rule II-12 states: "The tax rates of all settlements must be set to ‘normal’ at all times, except when an avatar is present in the settlement at the end of a turn."

    Those this mean that if your avatar leaves a town, the taxes revert back to normal? Just want to make sure I'm understanding this one correctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    TheFlax needs to die on principle. No townie should even be that scummy.

  19. #19
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlax View Post
    A questions and a clarification:

    Rule II-4 states: "Each player receives the income from their settlements into their own personal treasury, as well as any money gained from destroying buildings in those settlements."

    Is our starting amount of money 0 or something else? (I assume the income is received at the end of turn)


    Also,

    Rule II-12 states: "The tax rates of all settlements must be set to ‘normal’ at all times, except when an avatar is present in the settlement at the end of a turn."

    Those this mean that if your avatar leaves a town, the taxes revert back to normal? Just want to make sure I'm understanding this one correctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil XIX View Post
    You all start with 1000 florins in your treasury, except for the first person to reserve the Prince. He gets 2000.
    This is correct. I know that's a bit of a change, but it should work out nicely. (And if it doesn't, well that's why we're doing this.)

    The primary reasoning behind that rule is to answer the question "Why would anybody want to vassalize someone if it means giving up a province?" This way there's an incentive to gift a province to a vassal so he can manage it in your stead, ultimately providing you with more income for the loss of some control.

    It also offers different ways to roleplay threats. Will you stay inside your city for that extra income until the enemy is at the gates, letting others do the fighting for you? Or will you ride at whenever bandits threaten the land, for the good of the people and at great cost to yourself? And say you own a castle and a town. In times of danger you'll be tempted to relocate your person to your castle, but doing so will cost you extra income, so what will you do?

    Now that you mention it though, I think at one point I was considering a variation of that rule where you could only *lower* taxes if a settlement didn't have a govenor, and in order to raise them back up you'd have to enter the city. Would that be more agreeable to everyone?

    One of the things about these rules that I think could really work is that being chivalrous or dreadful would mean a lot more, since either path means less money for yourself.

  20. #20
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    Will an IC thread be put up soon? I feel we must discuss the vile presence of the English in our lands.
    V&V RIP Helmut Becker, Duke of Bavaria.



    Come to the Throne Room for hotseats and TW rpgs!

    Kermit's made a TWS2 guide? Oh, the other frog....

  21. #21
    The Search for Beefy Member TheFlax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil XIX View Post
    You all start with 1000 florins in your treasury, except for the first person to reserve the Prince. He gets 2000.
    Gah! I totally forgot about that previous post.

    As for the taxes, I'm all for trying it like that. It makes for interesting choices and if it doesn't work, we can always change it as you said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    TheFlax needs to die on principle. No townie should even be that scummy.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    I'll definitely consider joining the main game.

    Ekklesia Mafia: - An exciting new mafia game set in ancient Athens - Sign up NOW!
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  23. #23
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    Taking the save.
    V&V RIP Helmut Becker, Duke of Bavaria.



    Come to the Throne Room for hotseats and TW rpgs!

    Kermit's made a TWS2 guide? Oh, the other frog....

  24. #24
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    Well now, I've finally got the other four thread up! From now on this will be the OOC thread. For convenience, the other threads are linked below.

    The King's Council
    Battle Reports and Stories
    Rules, Saves and Turn-By-Turn Reports
    The SOT Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zim View Post
    Figured out my finances for the next turn.
    Excellent! Did your numbers also have you starting next turn with 1161 florins?

  25. #25
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valor (Test Game)

    I had a much lower number, actually, because I'd forgotten my share of the King's purse.

    Including that I also come up with 1161.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil XIX View Post
    Excellent! Did your numbers also have you starting next turn with 1161 florins?
    V&V RIP Helmut Becker, Duke of Bavaria.



    Come to the Throne Room for hotseats and TW rpgs!

    Kermit's made a TWS2 guide? Oh, the other frog....

  26. #26
    Prince Louis of France (KotF) Member Ramses II CP's Avatar
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    Default Re: OOC Thread

    Having some installation issues to work out. Not everything wants to play nice together.

    I expect I'll be up and running tomorrow.


  27. #27
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: OOC Thread

    I am watching this test game with immense interest. This is the first truly new game idea I've seen in the Throne Room in a long time, and I hope it's very successful. I have a few questions to satisfy my own curiosity, if you don't mind.

    1) Who is going to keep track of all the financial information? Is Cecil going to do it for everyone?
    2) If no one is paying bodyguard upkeep or wages, where is that money coming from?
    3) Following on from #2, are the financial figures going to be balanced with all of the actual in-game numbers, or will it be simplified in some manner?


  28. #28
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: OOC Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    1) Who is going to keep track of all the financial information? Is Cecil going to do it for everyone?
    2) If no one is paying bodyguard upkeep or wages, where is that money coming from?
    3) Following on from #2, are the financial figures going to be balanced with all of the actual in-game numbers, or will it be simplified in some manner?
    1) I will be keeping track of all financial information, but players are encouraged to do it themselves as well. That way mistakes are more likely to be caught.
    2) This game requires use of the add_money command at the start of every turn.
    3) Every effort will be made to adhere to the ingame ledger, aside from free General's Bodyguards and each player receiving bonus income. As you know, the ledger does accurately describe how much money is gained/lost each turn; it is frequently wrong. But using the add_money command I keep the same mechanics for money generation in the game, but I ensure that they also come out the way I want.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlax View Post
    Here is my accounting: (Correct me if I made any mistakes)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    1000 (Starting Sum)
    +600 (Donation from the King)
    -1600 (Town Watch in Dijon)
    0

    Florins gained next turn:

    856 (Taxes)
    +250 (King's Purse)
    -510 (Troop upkeep)
    596
    Actually, as stated in Rule II.10,

    To reiterate, the income and upkeep a player has at any given turn is added/removed at the beginning of the next turn.
    So the money the King gave Guillemot does not reach him until next turn. Is the rule not clearly worded enough? A player's treasury will only change during the course of a turn if they receive money from completing a mission or taking a settlement. All other changes only come into effect at the beginning of the turn.

    So since you can't afford to build a Town Watch you've spent no money, and will start next turn with 2196 florins.

  29. #29
    The Search for Beefy Member TheFlax's Avatar
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    Default Re: OOC Thread

    Ok, I missed that. I'll go and correct it right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    TheFlax needs to die on principle. No townie should even be that scummy.

  30. #30
    Prince Louis of France (KotF) Member Ramses II CP's Avatar
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    Default Re: OOC Thread

    Just to update my issues, Kingdoms is installed fine. I think it's fully patched. LTC gold is installed, and I can play games in it. I cannot load the saves for this game. They do the load bar and then just drop back to the menu screen.

    I've done one full reinstall already, which is a really annoying process due to the amount of stuff added onto MTWII. I'd like to avoid having to do another one. Are there any more patches or addons I need to throw into this mix to make things work?


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