Troubles legacy..

[KukriKhan]

The UK taxpayer.

I watched This Week last night and there is a very good analysis about the problems in Ulster from Denis Murray who is from there and still lives there. The analogy with Sud Afrika is misplaced. Although the political leaders have achieved impressive things, unheard of just ten years ago, the 'people' still have a lot of bitterness and resentment.

The money thing is just one of a whole raft of measures floated to help heal over old wounds. (I like me mixed metaphors me )

The first t&r thingee was 1995, right? So, we're really just crossing our fingers and hoping this way of resolving conflict can "stick", for at least a generation. If it doesn't stick, then we're back to the old victor's-justice way. I don't mind saying I'm a little uncomfortable with truth-and-reconciliation, because it looks and feels like it rewards 'bad' behavior.

BUT, if it stops or reduces the rate of killing, by removing some of the motivations for it, from all sides, I'll learn to embrace it.

[Tribesman]

I don't mind saying I'm a little uncomfortable with truth-and-reconciliation

People are not supposed to feel comfortable with it , it isn't a nice comfortable choice .
But are the other choices worse ?
Personally I am not happy with this , I would want every bastard involved in this fully exposed in public for every despicable action they did.....but would that help the situation much ?
So while these proposals are a bitter pill to swallow , maybe they are the best medicine for the long running sickness that is the six counties .

[Incongruous]

People are not supposed to feel comfortable with it , it isn't a nice comfortable choice .
But are the other choices worse ?
Personally I am not happy with this , I would want every bastard involved in this fully exposed in public for every despicable action they did.....but would that help the situation much ?

Wouldn't it?
I don't understand how these scum can still have such a hold on British society, I'm perplexed...

Jesus the UK Govt. is drowning in crap over its dodging of dodginess, why not just name and shame this time?

I mean, there were good guys and bastards on both sides right? Why not differenciate based oin that?
I am guessing soem men with mates might be embarrassed?

[Tribesman]

I don't understand how these scum can still have such a hold on British society, I'm perplexed...

Because they are British society , people at all levels of politics , civil service , judiciary , military and police were involved in some very nasty illegal stuff . Full disclosure would not be very pleasant for a freedom loving democracy would it . On the other hand full disclosure would also expose all the nasty terrorists for what they did , but they are terrorists so they don't really have much of a reputation to damage do they ?

[Incongruous]

Because they are British society , people at all levels of politics , civil service , judiciary , military and police were involved in some very nasty illegal stuff . Full disclosure would not be very pleasant for a freedom loving democracy would it . On the other hand full disclosure would also expose all the nasty terrorists for what they did , but they are terrorists so they don't really have much of a reputation to damage do they ?

Yeah, the UK, a freedom loving democracy, You just have to love the intrigue and double standards of British ideology.
I would just love to see some establishment monkeys getting a shock to their systems, I wonder how hard the PM would work to "perogative" that court ruling
I'm sure some of those terrorists have a following somehwere, I wonder if you could update me on the perception of the in Ireland?

Say, do you know what would be good? We have statue of Ghandi right? One of the leaders of the Indian independance movement, we should also erect one of Micheal Collins, don't ya think?

[tibilicus]

I'm sure some of those terrorists have a following somehwere, I wonder if you could update me on the perception of the in Ireland?

I take it you meant them in Ireland.

Basically the loyalist community still worship the UDA, republicans still worship the IRA.

The peace walls are still there, the orange order still march through Derry, including "free Derry" and the loyalist communities still yell no surrender and the republican communities go home Brits.


basically despite what the media tries to display tensions are still high, you wouldn't catch a catholic up the shankill or a protestant up the falls road put it that way.

[InsaneApache]

Because they are British society , people at all levels of politics , civil service , judiciary , military and police were involved in some very nasty illegal stuff . Full disclosure would not be very pleasant for a freedom loving democracy would it . On the other hand full disclosure would also expose all the nasty terrorists for what they did , but they are terrorists so they don't really have much of a reputation to damage do they ?

Care to substantiate that?

[Tribesman]

Care to substantiate that?

Would you care to attempt to deny it ?
Take an easy one , the military .
Show that the military did not commit murder , did not try to cover up murders , did not plant evidence to attempt to justify murders and did operate within the law .

Honestly IA I didn't think you were silly enough to challenge that .
So which are you going to start with , maybe a simple one like the Guards or Paras and then go onto a harder one like the SAS and finish with a real challenge like the UDR before attemting the impossible with the FRU .

[KukriKhan]

^^This^^, then, is why t&r is getting tried. It "worked" in Africa - maybe. Will it fly across the channel? Or over the Persian Gulf? Or the Atlantic? Nobody knows.

There's always the same troubling question: who pays? And: how willingly?

If we don our accountant's green, non-political eyeshade, t&r actually makes fiscal sense. Without digging up numbers to show what it costs to investigate, arrest, prosecute, convict, and incarcerate (if not kill) political perps/terrorist/terrorist-backers, etc., I suspect t&r payments to survivors are cheaper - and you get confessions to boot.

The only thing not satisfied is vengence.

[Furunculus]

Care to substantiate that?

it is without doubt the truth.

there were intelligence units that sabatoaged arms caches, to maim and kill - strictly illegal
there were intelligence agents that ambushed terror cells on the way to a terrorist operation, to kill them - strictly illegal
there were army intelligence agents that fed ira target details to loyalist assassination squads - strictly illegal
there were army intelligence agents that committed crimes to cover up the actions mentioned above - strictly illegal
there were spies within the IRA that were involved in killing and torturing members 'thought' to be informers - strictly illegal

the difference is that i fully support those actions, as the only way to fight a dirty war.

[Tribesman]

the difference is that i fully support those actions, as the only way to fight a dirty war.

So do you support blowing up a shopping centre to cause financial damage to put pressure on reaching a settlement ?
Ok some people will die and its illegal , buy hey its a dirty war isn't it and its the only way to fight a dirty war .

So Furunculus , whats it like being terrorist supporter and seeing nothing wrong with the killing of innocent people ?

[Furunculus]

So do you support blowing up a shopping centre to cause financial damage to put pressure on reaching a settlement ?
Ok some people will die and its illegal , buy hey its a dirty war isn't it and its the only way to fight a dirty war .

So Furunculus , whats it like being terrorist supporter and seeing nothing wrong with the killing of innocent people ?

Inventing a statement that i never said and attributing them to events that have not proven to be true. That would seem to conform to the third Tribesman debating technique.

the first is to launch a barrage of laughing smileys to create the impression that whatever was said was so ridiculous that no one else need trouble themselves with looking at the facts themselves, for fear that they might reach a dissenting opinion.

the second is to immediately google a contrary source in search of a piece of 'dirt', which is then advertised across the forum with magnificent disdain in an attempt to whitewash the entire issue to the majority who have not heard of the source.

and the third is to bring obtuse to an art form by arguing around every central theme with the aim of creating a cloud of negative conjecture that completely obscures the position that tribesman wishes to suppress.

Neither you nor I know how much was really known about that bombing, and it is likely we will never know and certainly not anytime soon.

What has been said officially so far is that there was no intelligence that would have allowed the prevention of that bombing, and I am not in a position to gainsay them, nor are you.

I would not support the blowing up of a shopping centre, and i question whether anyone involved in the British authorities would sanction such an operation.

As the official report into Operation Banner stated, the British army could never destroy the IRA but it totally prevented any possibility of a military victory by the IRA, and it did so without putting intolerable stress on the civic population of NI.

So they kept the option of a political settlement alive between the two communities, at the same time forcing the IRA into a political settlement, and in doing so they sabotaged, infiltrated and assassinated their way through the IRA ranks. i can cope with that.

[tibilicus]

So we should give a nice cash payment to terrorists who still choose to plant bombs? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/n...nd/7862438.stm


I'm sure they could buy a truck load of semtex with the 12 grand they're going to receive for the death of their buddy..

[Strike For The South]

Why can't we all just get along?

[KukriKhan]

Ummm, their dead buddy's family get the 12K. These current yay-huu's only get comp'd if they blew themselves up, then their Mum might get some cash. Or so a quick scan of the pdf report (link in your OP) reveals.

[KukriKhan]

Why can't we all just get along?

"I am Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

We all have an Inigo Montoya in us. If we want our kids and grandkids to live in peace with their neighbors, whose grandfathers fought our grandfathers, we have to suppress Señor Montoya, and find another way.

[Strike For The South]

"I am Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

We all have an Inigo Montoya in us. If we want our kids and grandkids to live in peace with their neighbors, whose grandfathers fought our grandfathers, we have to suppress Señor Montoya, and find another way.

The last I heard all irishmen moved to America when the potato failed. They were welcomed with open arms IIRC.

[Kralizec]

I'm not particulary bothered by it, to be honest. The fact that some people undeservedly receive a relatively small sum doesn't seem like a valid reason to toss aside the stability achieved over the past years.

[tibilicus]

I'm not particulary bothered by it, to be honest. The fact that some people undeservedly receive a relatively small sum doesn't seem like a valid reason to toss aside the stability achieved over the past years.

A small sum, but a sum non the less which will be paid for by UK tax payers money.

As far as I'm concerned I don't want any of the relatives of the paramilitaries getting a penny of UK tax payers money. There sons might of died for being part of a terrorist organization but congratulations they almost certainly deserved it.

To put it into perspective Lenny Murphy, a man who would kill innocent Catholics on a whim and quite rightly deserved the shooting which happened to him, under this payout scheme his relatives will be entitled to a 12K payment should they choose to accept it. Here's what im struggling to get around.

The fact is this schemes flawed anyway, the people proposing it seem to think that the problems fixed when in reality it's just the violence which is over. Tensions are still extremely high between the two communities and what will this cash payout actually do to help put the troubles in the past other than smear the names of those innocent people killed by giving the same vermin which committed atrocities against them or their relatives at least the same form of compensation?

Due to the fact the unionist communities and political parties are also staunchly opposed to the scheme this suggests to me more than anything that if this scheme goes ahead it will actually raise tensions not resolve any issues which are outstanding.

[Tribesman]

Inventing a statement that i never said and attributing them to events that have not proven to be true.

errrrr...you support the unlawful killing of often innocent people for political gain Furunculus and see nothing wrong with it , that is supporting terrorism , plain and simple .
Which means you are no different to the fenians or loyalists.

I would not support the blowing up of a shopping centre, and i question whether anyone involved in the British authorities would sanction such an operation.

Ever heard of a little place called Dublin ? or a smaller place called Monaghan ? Perhaps you have heard of the Keys Tavern ?
Funny how the paper trail and forensics for all those head one way doesn't it , perhaps when it goes finally to the European court Britain will have to hand over the rest of the details that it so far has refused to .
Though of course one outcome of the proposals put forward is that such nasty little details would be left in the past .

As the official report into Operation Banner stated,

Operation banner
Thats the overall military deployment for decades , it doesn't cover all the illegal does it
The reports into the illegal stuff said it had a negative effect , prolonged the conflict and caused more deep rooted problems that will probably never be resolved . In fact didn't they decide that the FRUs claims about it achievements were exagerated by about 100 times and that most of the terrorists they examined were actually British agents...and they managed to decide that despite having their British government office attacked by the bloody British agents .

So we should give a nice cash payment to terrorists who still choose to plant bombs?

Did you read the proposals ?
Obviously not

Or so a quick scan of the pdf report (link in your OP) reveals.

Kukri do a more thorough scan

[Furunculus]

errrrr...you support the unlawful killing of often innocent people for political gain Furunculus and see nothing wrong with it , that is supporting terrorism , plain and simple .
Which means you are no different to the fenians or loyalists.

Ever heard of a little place called Dublin ? or a smaller place called Monaghan ? Perhaps you have heard of the Keys Tavern ?
Funny how the paper trail and forensics for all those head one way doesn't it , perhaps when it goes finally to the European court Britain will have to hand over the rest of the details that it so far has refused to .
Though of course one outcome of the proposals put forward is that such nasty little details would be left in the past .

Operation banner
Thats the overall military deployment for decades , it doesn't cover all the illegal does it
The reports into the illegal stuff said it had a negative effect , prolonged the conflict and caused more deep rooted problems that will probably never be resolved . In fact didn't they decide that the FRUs claims about it achievements were exagerated by about 100 times and that most of the terrorists they examined were actually British agents...and they managed to decide that despite having their British government office attacked by the bloody British agents .

I never said i support the killing of innocent people.
The British Gov't did not allow major bombings to go ahead that any of us know, and even then i never justified bombings in the first place.

There will be a paper trail that leads into every fetid republican and loyalist rathole in NI as a result of thirty years of police/military/intelligence attempts to infiltrate and subvert the gangs, and there will have been innumerable occasions when difficult questions will have been asked as to whether enough was known about a threat to challenge it, whether some agents cover was worth blowing over the possibility of a threat. That detail is subjective and will never appear objectively in official reports.

The purpose of mentioning the OpBanner report was to highlight its recognition that rooting out a determined terrorist organisation is a delicate balance between fighting effectively and not trampling the civic community to the point where the grievance that harbours the group grows as a result of attempts to fight the group.
The Armed Forces think they got that balance right, which i am happy to agree with even when i am aware of all the illegal things done to aid that fight.
I do not believe a the British Gov't could have fought the IRA successfully without the use of illegal means, and I am happy that the use of illegal means was limited and moderate in my opinion.

[Tribesman]

I never said i support the killing of innocent people.

But you did .
You said you accept what they did , were happy with what they did , didn't have any problems with it and said so what if it was illegal .
So either you are supporting the killing of innocent people or you are completely ignorant on the issue and think that they only killed terrorists .

The purpose of mentioning the OpBanner report was to highlight its recognition that rooting out a determined terrorist organisation is a delicate balance between fighting effectively and not trampling the civic community to the point where the grievance that harbours the group grows as a result of attempts to fight the group.

and the purpose of mentioning that the Stephens report is that the illegal stuff was counterproductive , extended the conflict , was trampling the civic community and made the grievances grow ....oh and of course the funny bit about most of the terrorists actually working for the British .

I am happy that the use of illegal means was limited and moderate in my opinion.

limited ? moderate ? you really havn't got a clue have you .

[Furunculus]

But you did .
You said you accept what they did , were happy with what they did , didn't have any problems with it and said so what if it was illegal .
So either you are supporting the killing of innocent people or you are completely ignorant on the issue and think that they only killed terrorists .


and the purpose of mentioning that the Stephens report is that the illegal stuff was counterproductive , extended the conflict , was trampling the civic community and made the grievances grow ....oh and of course the funny bit about most of the terrorists actually working for the British .


limited ? moderate ? you really havn't got a clue have you .

I am happy with the idea of knocking off terrorists, i realise there are grey areas like pat finuncane who should never have been targeted if only because there was grey area.

The stevens report says nothing in its conclusion or recommendations to support what you say about the effectiveness of intelligence activities in NI.

What is limited or moderate when dealing with a determined sectarian terrorist group with secessionist ambitions? Russia flattened Grozny, we infiltrated groups and subverted/sabotaged/betrayed their operations. It is a value judgement, and i can understand someone holding the viewpoint that a Gov't must ALWAYS uphold and obey the laws its imposes on its citzens, but i do not believe that is realistic in all circumstances.

[tibilicus]

I am happy with the idea of knocking off terrorists, i realise there are grey areas like pat finuncane who should never have been targeted if only because there was grey area.

The stevens report says nothing in its conclusion or recommendations to support what you say about the effectiveness of intelligence activities in NI.

What is limited or moderate when dealing with a determined sectarian terrorist group with secessionist ambitions? Russia flattened Grozny, we infiltrated groups and subverted/sabotaged/betrayed their operations. It is a value judgement, and i can understand someone holding the viewpoint that a Gov't must ALWAYS uphold and obey the laws its imposes on its citzens, but i do not believe that is realistic in all circumstances.

Although you can understand why he might of been targeted due to his links with republican paramilitaries. He was an extremely grey area and his death was nothing but a tragic mistake.

Shame the same can't be said for his brothers....

[Tribesman]

we infiltrated groups and subverted/sabotaged/betrayed their operations.

And that would not be so bad if its all that was done , but as they killed innocent people to maintain those operations the arguement justifying it falls apart .

The stevens report says nothing in its conclusion or recommendations to support what you say about the effectiveness of intelligence activities in NI.

so you are saying that he didn't say most of the arrested terrorists questioned by the inquiry turned out to be working for the British , he didn't say that the claim of having saved 200 lives turned out to be 2 lives , and he didn't say that Nelson who murdered around 30 people managed to kill mainly innocent people who were not in any way involved in terrorism .

Shame the same can't be said for his brothers....

True , but then again with one of the brothers woman wasn't it ruled in the courts that she had been unlawfully killed

[Furunculus]

And that would not be so bad if its all that was done , but as they killed innocent people to maintain those operations the arguement justifying it falls apart .

so you are saying that he didn't say most of the arrested terrorists questioned by the inquiry turned out to be working for the British , he didn't say that the claim of having saved 200 lives turned out to be 2 lives , and he didn't say that Nelson who murdered around 30 people managed to kill mainly innocent people who were not in any way involved in terrorism .

I don't know about that, a tragedy no doubt, but the end result was a civilian populace that had not been entirely estranged from its other half by sectarian conflict (preventing civil conflict that would tear NI apart), and an IRA that could never hope for a military victory (thus forcing a political solution on a terrorist organisation).

I certainly saw no sign of "The reports into the illegal stuff said it had a negative effect , prolonged the conflict and caused more deep rooted problems that will probably never be resolved." You would think an important statement like that would have hit the conclusion somewhere if it was meant to have any weight..............

[Tribesman]

I don't know about that, a tragedy no doubt, but the end result was a civilian populace that had not been entirely estranged from its other half by sectarian conflict

Perhaps we have different definitions of estranged , because for me when junior school children are attacked for being the wrong religion to be allowed to walk down the road its kinda suggestive of the civilian population being estranged .

[Furunculus]

perhaps we do. i see that it could have been a lot worse.

[CountArach]

Damn... wrong thread.