Troubles legacy..

**Furunculus** · 02-01-2009, 13:25

Originally Posted by Tribesman

But you did .
You said you accept what they did , were happy with what they did , didn't have any problems with it and said so what if it was illegal .
So either you are supporting the killing of innocent people or you are completely ignorant on the issue and think that they only killed terrorists .

and the purpose of mentioning that the Stephens report is that the illegal stuff was counterproductive , extended the conflict , was trampling the civic community and made the grievances grow ....oh and of course the funny bit about most of the terrorists actually working for the British .

limited ? moderate ? you really havn't got a clue have you .

I am happy with the idea of knocking off terrorists, i realise there are grey areas like pat finuncane who should never have been targeted if only because there was grey area.

The stevens report says nothing in its conclusion or recommendations to support what you say about the effectiveness of intelligence activities in NI.

What is limited or moderate when dealing with a determined sectarian terrorist group with secessionist ambitions? Russia flattened Grozny, we infiltrated groups and subverted/sabotaged/betrayed their operations. It is a value judgement, and i can understand someone holding the viewpoint that a Gov't must ALWAYS uphold and obey the laws its imposes on its citzens, but i do not believe that is realistic in all circumstances.

**tibilicus** · 02-01-2009, 13:37

Originally Posted by Furunculus

I am happy with the idea of knocking off terrorists, i realise there are grey areas like pat finuncane who should never have been targeted if only because there was grey area.

The stevens report says nothing in its conclusion or recommendations to support what you say about the effectiveness of intelligence activities in NI.

What is limited or moderate when dealing with a determined sectarian terrorist group with secessionist ambitions? Russia flattened Grozny, we infiltrated groups and subverted/sabotaged/betrayed their operations. It is a value judgement, and i can understand someone holding the viewpoint that a Gov't must ALWAYS uphold and obey the laws its imposes on its citzens, but i do not believe that is realistic in all circumstances.

Although you can understand why he might of been targeted due to his links with republican paramilitaries. He was an extremely grey area and his death was nothing but a tragic mistake.

Shame the same can't be said for his brothers....

**Tribesman** · 02-01-2009, 15:34

we infiltrated groups and subverted/sabotaged/betrayed their operations.

And that would not be so bad if its all that was done , but as they killed innocent people to maintain those operations the arguement justifying it falls apart .

The stevens report says nothing in its conclusion or recommendations to support what you say about the effectiveness of intelligence activities in NI.

so you are saying that he didn't say most of the arrested terrorists questioned by the inquiry turned out to be working for the British , he didn't say that the claim of having saved 200 lives turned out to be 2 lives , and he didn't say that Nelson who murdered around 30 people managed to kill mainly innocent people who were not in any way involved in terrorism .

Shame the same can't be said for his brothers....

True , but then again with one of the brothers woman wasn't it ruled in the courts that she had been unlawfully killed

**Furunculus** · 02-01-2009, 17:21

Originally Posted by Tribesman

And that would not be so bad if its all that was done , but as they killed innocent people to maintain those operations the arguement justifying it falls apart .

so you are saying that he didn't say most of the arrested terrorists questioned by the inquiry turned out to be working for the British , he didn't say that the claim of having saved 200 lives turned out to be 2 lives , and he didn't say that Nelson who murdered around 30 people managed to kill mainly innocent people who were not in any way involved in terrorism .

I don't know about that, a tragedy no doubt, but the end result was a civilian populace that had not been entirely estranged from its other half by sectarian conflict (preventing civil conflict that would tear NI apart), and an IRA that could never hope for a military victory (thus forcing a political solution on a terrorist organisation).

I certainly saw no sign of "The reports into the illegal stuff said it had a negative effect , prolonged the conflict and caused more deep rooted problems that will probably never be resolved." You would think an important statement like that would have hit the conclusion somewhere if it was meant to have any weight..............

**Tribesman** · 02-02-2009, 09:34

I don't know about that, a tragedy no doubt, but the end result was a civilian populace that had not been entirely estranged from its other half by sectarian conflict

Perhaps we have different definitions of estranged , because for me when junior school children are attacked for being the wrong religion to be allowed to walk down the road its kinda suggestive of the civilian population being estranged .