Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 65

Thread: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

  1. #1
    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hanover, NH
    Posts
    3,569

    Default M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    I'm doubting that the EB system of cavalry having super-high charge will work in EB. When I modded M2TW a while back, I set all of the cavalry lances' attack power at 2 and put their charge somewhere in the teens. Spear cavalry units like Mounted Sergeants got 3 spear attack and about 8 charge. This is what I found to be balanced with the M2TW units. I used the same system when I modded Broken crescent. When I added armour piercing to the stats of the cavalry, they were back to being overpowered once again, but reducing their charge would mean that they would be less effective against levy units. I also buffed up the defense of infantry units.

    How does the EB team intend to cope with the natural overpoweredness of M2TW cavalry? My solutions for nerfing them have been pretty effective, reducing the number of casualties BOTH units (the charged and the charging horsemen) take on impact (M2TW cavalry take stupid casualties on hitting enemy units).
    Last edited by gamegeek2; 01-30-2009 at 02:08.
    Europa Barbarorum: Novus Ordo Mundi - Mod Leader Europa Barbarorum - Team Member

    Quote Originally Posted by skullheadhq
    Run Hax! For slave master gamegeek has arrived
    "To robbery, slaughter, plunder, they give the lying name of empire; they make a desert and call it peace." -Calgacus

  2. #2
    Member Megas Methuselah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Prairie Grasslands
    Posts
    5,040

    Lightbulb Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    Good topic to bring up, gamegeek. Although it is enjoyable witnessing a unit of cavalry ride down several units of infantry like grass, it does seem a tad unrealistic...

  3. #3
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    I would rather like cavalry to be able to stand up for sustained melee for a while rather than die like flies. I mean, that would be alot better than portraying all cavalry in the EB time frame as high impact chargers.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  4. #4
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    13,446

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    Well of course our cavalry will be not be statted to be medieval knights and of course we aren't just going to copy the EB I system. We'll be using a new system as complex, balanced and as historically accurate as EBI's.

  5. #5
    Wannabe Member The General's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Winland.
    Posts
    484

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    Quote Originally Posted by gamegeek2 View Post
    ...but reducing their charge would mean that they would be less effective against levy units.
    Ain't levy units kind of supposed to be butchered by cavalry, eh?
    I has two balloons!

  6. #6

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    M2TW cavalry is good enough. One of the aspects I like is that they switch to secondary automatically, instead of poking with their lances indefinetely. Maybe that will make AI Baktrian bodyguards a bit more fearsome?

  7. #7
    Member Member Macilrille's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Posts
    1,592

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    I like the MTW II Cav, they kill disorganised/low morale infantry like nothing, they die against spears or bowmen behind stakes, they have 50-50 against heavy inf depending on circumstances. No, I find them accurately portraying medieval Cavalry, or any for that matter.
    'For months Augustus let hair and beard grow and occasionally banged his head against the walls whilst shouting; "Quinctillius Varus, give me my legions back"' -Sueton, Augustus.

    "Deliver us oh God, from the fury of the Norsemen", French prayer, 9th century.
    Ask gi'r klask! ask-vikingekampgruppe.dk

    Balloon count: 13

  8. #8
    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hanover, NH
    Posts
    3,569

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    Of course, we will all appreciate the M2TW cavalry switching weapons, bla bla bla. I'm just saying that it doesn't make any sense for a unit of 40 horsemen charging into a unit of 60 foot knights (ready and in formation) to mow down half of the knights AND lose 5 of their own men on impact (too many losses on both sides). M2TW does inaccurately portray foot knights sans their lances, but even if they did have spears, a similar thing would happen (tested against the Papal Guard, I get similar results).

    And while cavalry should have less staying power than infantry, mailed horsemen shouldn't die especially quickly in close combat (with exceptions against spearmen, halberdiers, etc)

    And of course heavy horsemen are supposed to bowl over levy units (except large numbers of spearmen).
    Last edited by gamegeek2; 01-30-2009 at 20:29.
    Europa Barbarorum: Novus Ordo Mundi - Mod Leader Europa Barbarorum - Team Member

    Quote Originally Posted by skullheadhq
    Run Hax! For slave master gamegeek has arrived
    "To robbery, slaughter, plunder, they give the lying name of empire; they make a desert and call it peace." -Calgacus

  9. #9

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    Gamegeek, the lance is blind. When you have a compact formation of heavily armoured horsemen on bulky horses and their big lances lowered the momentum of the impact will shatter anything. Whether the charge is succesful or not depends if the infantry breaks, but if the horsemen present a compact and strong charge it is only natural that even the heaviest infantry will suffer unless they have means to stop the charge, and that usually is a long pole, halberd, voulge and the likes, as well as the good old pike. No wonder why so many formations in the middle ages employed them, after all.

    But the EB team will seek to accurately depict horsemen of the Ancient Age within the limitations of the engine while presenting more or less realistic situations. You can be sure that Equites Romani will not have the same impact as the current Feudal Knights et all have against infantry formations, but then no wonder that heavily armoured cataphracts will produce more or less similar results. They were armed and equipped to do it, and break enemy formations, afterall.
    Last edited by A Terribly Harmful Name; 01-30-2009 at 20:41.

  10. #10
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    13,446

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    Quote Originally Posted by Moros View Post
    Of course we'll be using a new system as complex, balanced and as historically accurate as EBI's.


  11. #11
    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hanover, NH
    Posts
    3,569

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    Gamegeek, the lance is blind. When you have a compact formation of heavily armoured horsemen on bulky horses and their big lances lowered the momentum of the impact will shatter anything. Whether the charge is succesful or not depends if the infantry breaks, but if the horsemen present a compact and strong charge it is only natural that even the heaviest infantry will suffer unless they have means to stop the charge, and that usually is a long pole, halberd, voulge and the likes, as well as the good old pike. No wonder why so many formations in the middle ages employed them, after all.

    But the EB team will seek to accurately depict horsemen of the Ancient Age within the limitations of the engine while presenting more or less realistic situations. You can be sure that Equites Romani will not have the same impact as the current Feudal Knights et all have against infantry formations, but then no wonder that heavily armoured cataphracts will produce more or less similar results. They were armed and equipped to do it, and break enemy formations, afterall.
    I know this, it's rather obvious when you apply the laws of physics. When the lance from a couched charge hits someone, the hit person gets killed or something else awful happens to them. But the guy in the next row? He may be pushed back, but he probably doesn't get hit by the lance. And something good: In M2TW, cavalry charging that run into their own men during the charge actually lose their momentum. So a swarm of Scythian Riders that are running into each other constantly have a much weaker charge.

    I also think that the cavalry charge distance for cataphracts (30) is awfully close up for heavy horsemen to get some serious momentum going to charge effectively. I raised the distance to 60 in my slightly modded version of EB.
    Last edited by gamegeek2; 01-31-2009 at 04:03.
    Europa Barbarorum: Novus Ordo Mundi - Mod Leader Europa Barbarorum - Team Member

    Quote Originally Posted by skullheadhq
    Run Hax! For slave master gamegeek has arrived
    "To robbery, slaughter, plunder, they give the lying name of empire; they make a desert and call it peace." -Calgacus

  12. #12
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    The guy behind might get killed by the guy infront of him being flung/skewed backwards at him with all the momentum of that horse. I mean, this is close one a ton/tonne hitting someone with a pointy stick going at 20-30 miles per hour. Its kinda like this(graphic):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b5QIux9AG8
    Last edited by antisocialmunky; 01-31-2009 at 04:41.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  13. #13
    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hanover, NH
    Posts
    3,569

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    That car has much more force that the knight. The guy behind probably wouldn't be killed, he has armour and a shield to dissipate the impact.

    I'm just wondering how you guys are going to get the M2TW cavalry engine to make EB-level cavalry.
    Last edited by gamegeek2; 01-31-2009 at 14:30.
    Europa Barbarorum: Novus Ordo Mundi - Mod Leader Europa Barbarorum - Team Member

    Quote Originally Posted by skullheadhq
    Run Hax! For slave master gamegeek has arrived
    "To robbery, slaughter, plunder, they give the lying name of empire; they make a desert and call it peace." -Calgacus

  14. #14
    Wannabe Member The General's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Winland.
    Posts
    484

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    Quote Originally Posted by gamegeek2 View Post
    That car has much more force that the knight.
    A horseman and horse will weight probably a minimum of 400kg (light horse and unarmoured man), and an heavily armoured man and a large (modern-day) horse could weigh over a thousand kilograms - as much as a car, and a horse can reach a speed of 89km/h (55mp/h, the world record atm). Of course, a horse of ancient times would've been smaller than a large 700kg modern-day riding horse, but nonetheless, we can assume the armoured rider and horse would've weighed well over half a ton and could've reached a speed over 50km/h for a charge... There's quite a bit of force there. :P
    I has two balloons!

  15. #15
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    :-\ 55 mph? Are you sure about that?
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  16. #16
    Jesus Member lobf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Nazareth
    Posts
    531

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    Quote Originally Posted by The General View Post
    A horseman and horse will weight probably a minimum of 400kg (light horse and unarmoured man), and an heavily armoured man and a large (modern-day) horse could weigh over a thousand kilograms - as much as a car, and a horse can reach a speed of 89km/h (55mp/h, the world record atm). Of course, a horse of ancient times would've been smaller than a large 700kg modern-day riding horse, but nonetheless, we can assume the armoured rider and horse would've weighed well over half a ton and could've reached a speed over 50km/h for a charge... There's quite a bit of force there. :P
    The lightest of average cars weighs twice that much and goes much faster. There's no way a knight hits with the force of an automobile.

  17. #17
    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hanover, NH
    Posts
    3,569

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    The horse is significantly slowed down by the weight of the man and armour, however the impetus offered by the additional weight serves to contrast this. I would be surprised if charging cataphracts went faster than the fastest runner (28 mph). However, contrary to your belief, there were definitely large breeds of horses in ancient times, particularly the Nisean breed which the Parthian cataphracts rode. It takes a horse stronger than a modern day riding horse AFAIK to carry Grivpanvar and all their armour AND make an effective charge.

    And, as seen at the Battle of Carrhae, even the Parthian Cataphracts could not beat the well-trained Roman Legionarii when they were formed up and using pila as spears. A strong, well-made shield will be able to take the majority of a lance's impact, though it might be broken or shattered.
    Europa Barbarorum: Novus Ordo Mundi - Mod Leader Europa Barbarorum - Team Member

    Quote Originally Posted by skullheadhq
    Run Hax! For slave master gamegeek has arrived
    "To robbery, slaughter, plunder, they give the lying name of empire; they make a desert and call it peace." -Calgacus

  18. #18
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    I was just making a claim that one man cannot stop a heavy horse easily, and a heavy horse hitting a group of men would be much like a car plowing through a crowd of people. So if you're using the numbers in this thread, it would be more like a Smart Car(730kg) plowing into a group of people at about 20 miles per hour.

    I used round numbers because that's what I thought a heavy cataphract would weigh close to a ton.

    So, lets do some math just for fun.

    Horse: 400 - 500 kg
    Person: ~55 - 70 kg(Normal and Overwight for a ~5 foot 3 man from a modern BMI graph)
    Armor and Equipment: ? - I honestly have no clue. I'm thinking about a heavier type of horse. Would be nice to get a number.
    So the total would be around 512.5 kg for just a guy on a horse.

    The horse would be galloping anywhere from 40-48 kph(25 -30 mph) on impact. The average of that is 44 kph. This gives a total momentum of 22550 kg km/h. Now assuming an inelastic impact because people kinda squish:

    m1 * v1 + m2 * v2 = (m1+m2)*vf

    And using the mass for a human of 62.5 kg, that gives us a final velocity of about 40 kph. So the first person only slows it down by 4 kph. Assuming that he couldn't do a barrel-roll, he took the lance in the chest. The lance then broke. The primary weapon is gone now but its going to continue trampling guys assuming they stand their ground. I guess this is assuming no bracing.

    Here are more numbers for a horse hitting people:

    Code:
    Initial: 44 kph
    Person 1: 40 kph
    Person 2: 35 kph
    Person 3: 31 kph
    Person 4: 27 kph
    Person 5: 24 kph
    etc
    So lets look at guy #2. He gets accelerated to 35 KPH in a split second. Assuming that it is accelerated to that speed in about x seconds, that's:

    35kph / (3600 m/h * s/m) * 1000 * m/km = 9.72 m/s
    9.72 m/s / 1/100 s = 9.72x m/s^2
    9.72x m/s^2 * 62.5 kg = 607.5x N

    Depending on how long the impact takes, he could either live or die. If anyone has a good idea of how long it takes to transfer all that momentum, please tell me.
    Last edited by antisocialmunky; 01-31-2009 at 20:51.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  19. #19
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    In ancient Middle East, driving Assyrian war machines...
    Posts
    3,991
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    The impact will be actually much higher... What that you count is Force... quite large, but it goes larger when we count the lancetip's area... the pressure it created will punch a hole even to a well made 5mm metal sheet.

    P=F/A

    My Projects : * Near East Total War * Nusantara Total War * Assyria Total War *
    * Watch the mind-blowing game : My Little Ponies : The Mafia Game!!! *

    Also known as SPIKE in TWC

  20. #20

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    Antisocialmunky, FYI late medieval plate armour weighed about the same or even less than hoplite bronze cuirasses. This site mentions 52lbs average for the whole equipment (23.58kg according to the converter), and that's a value appropriate for late XV century Gothic plate armour. Don't forget the horse barding which often added weight too, thus making it a bit heavier than in your original values. If the guy was wearing jousting armor, even more.
    Last edited by A Terribly Harmful Name; 02-01-2009 at 18:54. Reason: Corrected armour link

  21. #21
    Sharp/Charismatic/Languorous Member Novellus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    152

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    Quote Originally Posted by Basileos ton Ellenon View Post
    Antisocialmunky, FYI late medieval plate armour weighed about the same or even less than hoplite bronze cuirasses. This site mentions 52lbs average for the whole equipment (23.58kg according to the converter), and that's a value appropriate for late XV century Gothic plate armour. Don't forget the horse barding which often added weight too, thus making it a bit heavier than in your original values. If the guy was wearing jousting armor, even more.
    True. Take a look at how large the numbers are already WITHOUT adjusting for the additional weight of armor. That is A LOT of momentum going. Truthfully, I felt as though the cavalry didn't do enough damage on charges. Even if cavalry didn't reach full speed and the lances weren't lowered, such as what happens when the charge distance is attempted at too short of a range, the horse should do more damage and disrupt unit cohesion more than it is represented.
    Last edited by Novellus; 02-01-2009 at 19:24.
    My Balloon! -Strategos Alexandros- "What to do with the Epeirotes?"

    Why did the Romans fall?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Because everyone got sick of the Lorica Segmentata!

  22. #22

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    Yes and now try and face it without a polearm of your own. No wonder that M2TW cavalry is what it is now.

  23. #23
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    Yes, that's not accounting for stactic friction/resisting forces(IE braced spears) and people being pushed into each other or rolled out of the way as a dead on hit would be unlikely.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  24. #24
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    In ancient Middle East, driving Assyrian war machines...
    Posts
    3,991
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    If u got 3.5 m lance, with some skill you can screw 2 or 3 men in one charge....

    rather off the topic question:
    What about halberd armed cavalry? they should like Guan Yu (3 kingdoms), and they will hack their way in extremely brutal manner, plus, they had excellent chance to survive in melee... (they are elite cavalrymen in ancient china afterall, why not the saka or sauromatae encountered them and copy them?)

    My Projects : * Near East Total War * Nusantara Total War * Assyria Total War *
    * Watch the mind-blowing game : My Little Ponies : The Mafia Game!!! *

    Also known as SPIKE in TWC

  25. #25
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II



    ?Que?
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  26. #26
    AtB n00b Member chairman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    With my head in the clouds and my feet on the ground
    Posts
    205

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    While the halberd was very popular among chinese cavalry in later periods, it was not in common use by EB's time period. In the Warring States period and Han dynasty, the main melee cavalry weapons were the lance (no more than 3m), dagger-axe and sword. Halberds became more common by the Tang dynasty in the 7th C, and by the 10 & 11 C were very popular.

    Chairman
    My balloons -

  27. #27
    Member Member Cyclops's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
    Posts
    968

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    It seems a fair point the OP raises, and I look forward to the ingenious solution the EB2 team comes up with.

    My own uniformed impression is that the stirrup was not in general use (if at all) in the EB2 period, thus making heavy cavalry less effective. Is the problem delivering shock from an unbraced rider and mount to the target without dismounting the rider?

    Of course there was effective heavy-to-kataphract weight cav around in the classical age, which did smash infantry quite badly, but just less effectively than horsemen of the age of chivalry. Is that a fair assesment? Its a gross simpification, but the Roman empire held quite well against the northern foes until they were swept away in the Gothic storm, which I'm assuming was a stirrup assisted movement.

    I recall a short archaeological film comparing depictions (eg from illuminated mss) with excavated bodies, showing enormous wounds, for example blokes split from collarbone to pelvis. Terrifying how much force a horseman can generate when properly mounted and braced, he had the force of his mount and the extra height (from standing in the stirrups) to swing down from. No wonder even succesful infantry tradtions like the early Franks 9not to mention the eastern empire) adopted heavy cav armament.
    From Hax, Nachtmeister & Subotan

    Jatte lambasts Calico Rat

  28. #28

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    The stirrup wasn't fully necessary for the shock action of cavalry. Alexander's Companions prove that point quite well. Instead, the stirrup is really useful for close-quarters fighting when the horseman has to draw his sidearm to crack some skulls. It allowed the rider to stand up and shift his weight to deliver a more powerful, better-balanced blow to whatever hapless infantry stood below him.
    From Fluvius Camillus for my Alexander screenshot

  29. #29
    Member Member Macilrille's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Posts
    1,592

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    Like all other germanic Barbarians the Goths were primarily infantry-based, their stay on the Ukranian steppe had probably heightened their proportion of cavalry to infantry, but they were nonetheless still mostly infantry. It is a question of settled farmers being mostly infantry while nomads/herdsmen are primarily cavalry in that specific setting. Battle of Hadrianopolis was an infantry action until the Goth cavalry with their Alan friends/allies/mercenaries returned from foraging and turned the Roman flank. Nor were the Goths the only tribe to invade the WRE and the others were by and large infantry.

    Note that at Tours October 10, 732, the well-trained, armed and disciplined Frankish FOOT soldiers withstood the heavy cavalry of the Umayyads and defeated it. Well-trained, armed and disciplined heavy foot will as a general rule defeat any cavalry you care to mention. It is when they break rank as at Hastings, they get slaughtered.

    However, it generally takes an organised state to arm, produce and train this body of foot. A state that was by and large absent in the middle ages. Instead the small bands of well equipped and trained cavalry dominated all battlefields where they did not meet organised heavy foot. It is easier to maintain a single or a few knights and bring them together in effective if disorganised and undisciplined warbands than to keep heavy foot (not to mention chivalric ideals and general ideology). In that light some military historians have seen The Middle Ages not so much as the age of cavalry as the age of absent foot.
    'For months Augustus let hair and beard grow and occasionally banged his head against the walls whilst shouting; "Quinctillius Varus, give me my legions back"' -Sueton, Augustus.

    "Deliver us oh God, from the fury of the Norsemen", French prayer, 9th century.
    Ask gi'r klask! ask-vikingekampgruppe.dk

    Balloon count: 13

  30. #30
    Member Member Cyclops's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
    Posts
    968

    Default Re: M2TW Cavalry and EB II

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post
    Like all other germanic Barbarians the Goths were primarily infantry-based, their stay on the Ukranian steppe had probably heightened their proportion of cavalry to infantry, but they were nonetheless still mostly infantry. It is a question of settled farmers being mostly infantry while nomads/herdsmen are primarily cavalry in that specific setting. Battle of Hadrianopolis was an infantry action until the Goth cavalry with their Alan friends/allies/mercenaries returned from foraging and turned the Roman flank. Nor were the Goths the only tribe to invade the WRE and the others were by and large infantry.
    Definitely the germanic footmen were the rats that swarmed the foundered ship of state, but I'd argue they managed it only once the horsey Goths and Huns had cracked the nut. Up until then the Romans cracked german heads as a regular sport for centuries, and only lost if they put pencil-necks in charge who led legions into swamps in winter....

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post
    Note that at Tours October 10, 732, the well-trained, armed and disciplined Frankish FOOT soldiers withstood the heavy cavalry of the Umayyads and defeated it. Well-trained, armed and disciplined heavy foot will as a general rule defeat any cavalry you care to mention. It is when they break rank as at Hastings, they get slaughtered.
    Poitiers/Tours in 732 was pretty much the first stop on a charge that commenced at Mecca, so they were due for a halt. Not sure about Ummayid heavies, perhaps they were more of a Berber raiding party than formed Kwarazmian style katas?

    From the Red Sea to the Loire valley is a fairly impressive run of wins for the horse vs the foot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post
    However, it generally takes an organised state to arm, produce and train this body of foot. A state that was by and large absent in the middle ages. Instead the small bands of well equipped and trained cavalry dominated all battlefields where they did not meet organised heavy foot. It is easier to maintain a single or a few knights and bring them together in effective if disorganised and undisciplined warbands than to keep heavy foot (not to mention chivalric ideals and general ideology). In that light some military historians have seen The Middle Ages not so much as the age of cavalry as the age of absent foot.
    Very good point. The very real breakdown of civilization (in the West) meant there was not the urban administration to rally and arm concentrations of foot.

    I liken the spread of the feudal horse culture to the mafia. Its all about honour, families, getting "made" (a knight), private wars (feuds), extortion (dues and levies) and pimped rides.
    From Hax, Nachtmeister & Subotan

    Jatte lambasts Calico Rat

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO