M2TW Cavalry and EB II

[gamegeek2]

I'm doubting that the EB system of cavalry having super-high charge will work in EB. When I modded M2TW a while back, I set all of the cavalry lances' attack power at 2 and put their charge somewhere in the teens. Spear cavalry units like Mounted Sergeants got 3 spear attack and about 8 charge. This is what I found to be balanced with the M2TW units. I used the same system when I modded Broken crescent. When I added armour piercing to the stats of the cavalry, they were back to being overpowered once again, but reducing their charge would mean that they would be less effective against levy units. I also buffed up the defense of infantry units.

How does the EB team intend to cope with the natural overpoweredness of M2TW cavalry? My solutions for nerfing them have been pretty effective, reducing the number of casualties BOTH units (the charged and the charging horsemen) take on impact (M2TW cavalry take stupid casualties on hitting enemy units).

[Megas Methuselah]

Good topic to bring up, gamegeek. Although it is enjoyable witnessing a unit of cavalry ride down several units of infantry like grass, it does seem a tad unrealistic...

[antisocialmunky]

I would rather like cavalry to be able to stand up for sustained melee for a while rather than die like flies. I mean, that would be alot better than portraying all cavalry in the EB time frame as high impact chargers.

[Moros]

Well of course our cavalry will be not be statted to be medieval knights and of course we aren't just going to copy the EB I system. We'll be using a new system as complex, balanced and as historically accurate as EBI's.

[Moros]

Of course we'll be using a new system as complex, balanced and as historically accurate as EBI's.

[gamegeek2]

Gamegeek, the lance is blind. When you have a compact formation of heavily armoured horsemen on bulky horses and their big lances lowered the momentum of the impact will shatter anything. Whether the charge is succesful or not depends if the infantry breaks, but if the horsemen present a compact and strong charge it is only natural that even the heaviest infantry will suffer unless they have means to stop the charge, and that usually is a long pole, halberd, voulge and the likes, as well as the good old pike. No wonder why so many formations in the middle ages employed them, after all.

But the EB team will seek to accurately depict horsemen of the Ancient Age within the limitations of the engine while presenting more or less realistic situations. You can be sure that Equites Romani will not have the same impact as the current Feudal Knights et all have against infantry formations, but then no wonder that heavily armoured cataphracts will produce more or less similar results. They were armed and equipped to do it, and break enemy formations, afterall.

I know this, it's rather obvious when you apply the laws of physics. When the lance from a couched charge hits someone, the hit person gets killed or something else awful happens to them. But the guy in the next row? He may be pushed back, but he probably doesn't get hit by the lance. And something good: In M2TW, cavalry charging that run into their own men during the charge actually lose their momentum. So a swarm of Scythian Riders that are running into each other constantly have a much weaker charge.

I also think that the cavalry charge distance for cataphracts (30) is awfully close up for heavy horsemen to get some serious momentum going to charge effectively. I raised the distance to 60 in my slightly modded version of EB.

[The General]

...but reducing their charge would mean that they would be less effective against levy units.

Ain't levy units kind of supposed to be butchered by cavalry, eh?

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

M2TW cavalry is good enough. One of the aspects I like is that they switch to secondary automatically, instead of poking with their lances indefinetely. Maybe that will make AI Baktrian bodyguards a bit more fearsome?

[Macilrille]

I like the MTW II Cav, they kill disorganised/low morale infantry like nothing, they die against spears or bowmen behind stakes, they have 50-50 against heavy inf depending on circumstances. No, I find them accurately portraying medieval Cavalry, or any for that matter.

[gamegeek2]

Of course, we will all appreciate the M2TW cavalry switching weapons, bla bla bla. I'm just saying that it doesn't make any sense for a unit of 40 horsemen charging into a unit of 60 foot knights (ready and in formation) to mow down half of the knights AND lose 5 of their own men on impact (too many losses on both sides). M2TW does inaccurately portray foot knights sans their lances, but even if they did have spears, a similar thing would happen (tested against the Papal Guard, I get similar results).

And while cavalry should have less staying power than infantry, mailed horsemen shouldn't die especially quickly in close combat (with exceptions against spearmen, halberdiers, etc)

And of course heavy horsemen are supposed to bowl over levy units (except large numbers of spearmen).

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Gamegeek, the lance is blind. When you have a compact formation of heavily armoured horsemen on bulky horses and their big lances lowered the momentum of the impact will shatter anything. Whether the charge is succesful or not depends if the infantry breaks, but if the horsemen present a compact and strong charge it is only natural that even the heaviest infantry will suffer unless they have means to stop the charge, and that usually is a long pole, halberd, voulge and the likes, as well as the good old pike. No wonder why so many formations in the middle ages employed them, after all.

But the EB team will seek to accurately depict horsemen of the Ancient Age within the limitations of the engine while presenting more or less realistic situations. You can be sure that Equites Romani will not have the same impact as the current Feudal Knights et all have against infantry formations, but then no wonder that heavily armoured cataphracts will produce more or less similar results. They were armed and equipped to do it, and break enemy formations, afterall.

[Promotus]

EBII!!!!!!!!!!

soon yeah the best of the best in the MOD WORLD

[Aemilius Paulus]

Ahh, finally I have found other people who loathe the MiNO cavalry. So what makes it so powerful? Their stats seem normal. The charges are ridiculously overpowered though. I recollect charging Armoured Swordsmen with Feudal Knights (all un-upgraded) and the the poor footmen had all but 8 dead. Out of 90!! Not to mention the Feudal Knights are just about the weakest one can get. Then what is the point of getting anything better? Not even braced spearmen and halberdiers were able to even so much as bother my horsemen. I had the same casualties frontally charging braced spearmen as swordsmen - that is preposterous!

So anyway, the cavalry bugs, including the difficulty of pulling out, as well as the inability to capture towers are basically the two little things that made me quite MiNO/M2TW in two weeks of sparse playing.

[antisocialmunky]

I killed all but 12 Triarri on huge settings with the Iberian Catanks once.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Aemilius Paulus,

Remember that against the combination of stirrup, saddle, destrier lance and armored dude trained since childbirth little can stand. In this aspect Medieval is realistic since you better leave at least some sort of spearman to brace against the charge and then you will need at least pikes to fight Gendarmes and other cavalrymen. These guys were literally giant tin cans with pointy poles and some were even able to break through solid pike formations.

[lenin96]

I remember in my HRE campaign in standard M2TW where I took Jerusalem then the Mongols came and sieged it with three full stacks. I had blocked off the entrences to the town square (Iforgot one) and placed lots of spearmen and pikemen there as well, then the mongol cavalry breaks through charges through my all of my spears like Gandalf from LOTR.

[ziegenpeter]

Aemilius Paulus,

Remember that against the combination of stirrup, saddle, destrier lance and armored dude trained since childbirth little can stand. In this aspect Medieval is realistic since you better leave at least some sort of spearman to brace against the charge and then you will need at least pikes to fight Gendarmes and other cavalrymen. These guys were literally giant tin cans with pointy poles and some were even able to break through solid pike formations.

I'm very interested which sources you can recommend about this subject. I've never read something explicitly saying what you teach me here.
THX

[seienchin]

I killed all but 12 Triarri on huge settings with the Iberian Catanks once.

How many units did you use...
I was attacked by Iberian Heavy Cavallery today and they killed none in open field... If the Triarii can prepare and have the defense mode on most charges do nothing...
I hope thats going to be different in EB2, but by the way:
In the EB times the stirrup were no known to most of the world, so it was impossible to get an charge with a lance like the knights in the Medivial. Ancient Cavallery is believed to rather fight close combat than doing crushing charges. Im think EB is doing it exactly the opposite way, guess its just more fun

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

You don't need a stirrup neither a saddle to charge with a lance succesfully.

The Hetairoi had, at best, only saddlecloth. Though later the Romans and Parthians used saddles because of their obvious benefit to rider stability, and not necessarily because they were essential.

[antisocialmunky]

How many units did you use...
I was attacked by Iberian Heavy Cavallery today and they killed none in open field... If the Triarii can prepare and have the defense mode on most charges do nothing...
I hope thats going to be different in EB2, but by the way:
In the EB times the stirrup were no known to most of the world, so it was impossible to get an charge with a lance like the knights in the Medivial. Ancient Cavallery is believed to rather fight close combat than doing crushing charges. Im think EB is doing it exactly the opposite way, guess its just more fun

One units of Iberian Heavies in an actual charge. That is a charge from walking spped with lowered lances not from running. The Triarii stopped infront of my cavalry to try adn brace but didn't make it in time.