M2TW Cavalry and EB II

[The General]

That car has much more force that the knight.

A horseman and horse will weight probably a minimum of 400kg (light horse and unarmoured man), and an heavily armoured man and a large (modern-day) horse could weigh over a thousand kilograms - as much as a car, and a horse can reach a speed of 89km/h (55mp/h, the world record atm). Of course, a horse of ancient times would've been smaller than a large 700kg modern-day riding horse, but nonetheless, we can assume the armoured rider and horse would've weighed well over half a ton and could've reached a speed over 50km/h for a charge... There's quite a bit of force there. :P

[antisocialmunky]

:-\ 55 mph? Are you sure about that?

[lobf]

A horseman and horse will weight probably a minimum of 400kg (light horse and unarmoured man), and an heavily armoured man and a large (modern-day) horse could weigh over a thousand kilograms - as much as a car, and a horse can reach a speed of 89km/h (55mp/h, the world record atm). Of course, a horse of ancient times would've been smaller than a large 700kg modern-day riding horse, but nonetheless, we can assume the armoured rider and horse would've weighed well over half a ton and could've reached a speed over 50km/h for a charge... There's quite a bit of force there. :P

The lightest of average cars weighs twice that much and goes much faster. There's no way a knight hits with the force of an automobile.

[gamegeek2]

The horse is significantly slowed down by the weight of the man and armour, however the impetus offered by the additional weight serves to contrast this. I would be surprised if charging cataphracts went faster than the fastest runner (28 mph). However, contrary to your belief, there were definitely large breeds of horses in ancient times, particularly the Nisean breed which the Parthian cataphracts rode. It takes a horse stronger than a modern day riding horse AFAIK to carry Grivpanvar and all their armour AND make an effective charge.

And, as seen at the Battle of Carrhae, even the Parthian Cataphracts could not beat the well-trained Roman Legionarii when they were formed up and using pila as spears. A strong, well-made shield will be able to take the majority of a lance's impact, though it might be broken or shattered.

[antisocialmunky]

I was just making a claim that one man cannot stop a heavy horse easily, and a heavy horse hitting a group of men would be much like a car plowing through a crowd of people. So if you're using the numbers in this thread, it would be more like a Smart Car(730kg) plowing into a group of people at about 20 miles per hour.

I used round numbers because that's what I thought a heavy cataphract would weigh close to a ton.

So, lets do some math just for fun.

Horse: 400 - 500 kg
Person: ~55 - 70 kg(Normal and Overwight for a ~5 foot 3 man from a modern BMI graph)
Armor and Equipment: ? - I honestly have no clue. I'm thinking about a heavier type of horse. Would be nice to get a number.
So the total would be around 512.5 kg for just a guy on a horse.

The horse would be galloping anywhere from 40-48 kph(25 -30 mph) on impact. The average of that is 44 kph. This gives a total momentum of 22550 kg km/h. Now assuming an inelastic impact because people kinda squish:

m1 * v1 + m2 * v2 = (m1+m2)*vf

And using the mass for a human of 62.5 kg, that gives us a final velocity of about 40 kph. So the first person only slows it down by 4 kph. Assuming that he couldn't do a barrel-roll, he took the lance in the chest. The lance then broke. The primary weapon is gone now but its going to continue trampling guys assuming they stand their ground. I guess this is assuming no bracing.

Here are more numbers for a horse hitting people:

Initial: 44 kph
Person 1: 40 kph
Person 2: 35 kph
Person 3: 31 kph
Person 4: 27 kph
Person 5: 24 kph
etc

So lets look at guy #2. He gets accelerated to 35 KPH in a split second. Assuming that it is accelerated to that speed in about x seconds, that's:

35kph / (3600 m/h * s/m) * 1000 * m/km = 9.72 m/s
9.72 m/s / 1/100 s = 9.72x m/s^2
9.72x m/s^2 * 62.5 kg = 607.5x N

Depending on how long the impact takes, he could either live or die. If anyone has a good idea of how long it takes to transfer all that momentum, please tell me.

[Cute Wolf]

The impact will be actually much higher... What that you count is Force... quite large, but it goes larger when we count the lancetip's area... the pressure it created will punch a hole even to a well made 5mm metal sheet.

P=F/A

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Antisocialmunky, FYI late medieval plate armour weighed about the same or even less than hoplite bronze cuirasses. This site mentions 52lbs average for the whole equipment (23.58kg according to the converter), and that's a value appropriate for late XV century Gothic plate armour. Don't forget the horse barding which often added weight too, thus making it a bit heavier than in your original values. If the guy was wearing jousting armor, even more.

[Novellus]

Antisocialmunky, FYI late medieval plate armour weighed about the same or even less than hoplite bronze cuirasses. This site mentions 52lbs average for the whole equipment (23.58kg according to the converter), and that's a value appropriate for late XV century Gothic plate armour. Don't forget the horse barding which often added weight too, thus making it a bit heavier than in your original values. If the guy was wearing jousting armor, even more.

True. Take a look at how large the numbers are already WITHOUT adjusting for the additional weight of armor. That is A LOT of momentum going. Truthfully, I felt as though the cavalry didn't do enough damage on charges. Even if cavalry didn't reach full speed and the lances weren't lowered, such as what happens when the charge distance is attempted at too short of a range, the horse should do more damage and disrupt unit cohesion more than it is represented.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Yes and now try and face it without a polearm of your own. No wonder that M2TW cavalry is what it is now.