M2TW Cavalry and EB II

**ziegenpeter** · 02-21-2009, 16:14

Originally Posted by Basileos ton Ellenon

Aemilius Paulus,

Remember that against the combination of stirrup, saddle, destrier lance and armored dude trained since childbirth little can stand. In this aspect Medieval is realistic since you better leave at least some sort of spearman to brace against the charge and then you will need at least pikes to fight Gendarmes and other cavalrymen. These guys were literally giant tin cans with pointy poles and some were even able to break through solid pike formations.

I'm very interested which sources you can recommend about this subject. I've never read something explicitly saying what you teach me here.
THX

**A Terribly Harmful Name** · 02-22-2009, 20:00

Ziegenpeter,

If you want an example of French Cavalry prevailing over pikes, see the Battles of Marignano and Ravenna. Gendarmes, like the Winged Hussaria, could sometimes prevail over solid pike formations in a charge, although it was never the rule, only a possiblity.

Remember that the Gendarme and Heavy Cavalry of the period were far heavier than any Ancient Cavalry, so don't take the viewpoint of EB on the issue.

**Banzai!** · 02-22-2009, 21:41

What about the historical precedent of Alexander's battles? He could just charge in with his hetairoi and butcher the infantry.

**antisocialmunky** · 02-23-2009, 01:06

Didn't some of the Persian Indian cavalry kill about 60 of them and escape after they looted the Macedonian camp?

**russia almighty** · 02-23-2009, 02:43

Originally Posted by Basileos ton Ellenon

Ziegenpeter,

If you want an example of French Cavalry prevailing over pikes, see the Battles of Marignano and Ravenna. Gendarmes, like the Winged Hussaria, could sometimes prevail over solid pike formations in a charge, although it was never the rule, only a possiblity.

Remember that the Gendarme and Heavy Cavalry of the period were far heavier than any Ancient Cavalry, so don't take the viewpoint of EB on the issue.

I never saw the Hussars as heavy in terms of weight of their gear. I figured it was more of their role of being used in a balls to the wall charge. About the pikemen they charged, anything known about them? Like, were they green, and that fact was taken advantage of?

**A Terribly Harmful Name** · 02-23-2009, 02:57

Well I've read some statements that the lance used by the Winged Hussars, which were of elite quality, sometimes managed to be longer than the pikes used by the Swedes in their numerous wars with Poland. Kirkholm would be a classical example of Polish cavalry steamrolling infantry of green, dubious quality at best. So much that Gustavus always sought to use artillery and fight in rough terrain and from prepared positions to avoid giving the enemy a headstart.

**russia almighty** · 02-23-2009, 04:40

And I thought the kontos was the longest lance out there. That blows them out of the water.

**A Terribly Harmful Name** · 02-23-2009, 05:41

I'm not sure if the lance was the only factor. Mind you that most of the Swedish infantry carried muskets, which was a direct result of the lack of enforcement of army regulations and standardisation amidst Swedish conscripts. This means unprotected musketeers had a very inflated role in early Swedish armies. In Kirkholm they not only lacked pike support, as I am informed, but also were very predictably unlucky when the Swedish cavalry attempted a Caracole at Polish horse and were routed in minutes of combat. Later pistol armed Swedish cavalry abandoned the caracolle and used more shock oriented formations to greater effect.