Gaza again

[Tribesman]

Is Olmert with his new threat of fierce and disprortionate strikes ripping up the IDF code of conduct that says.....The use of force must be proportional.
Must be getting closer to elections eh .
Whatever next? calling for 10 palestinians to be killed for every Israeli killed ...but hold on don't they already manage more than that .

[rasoforos]

Oh not again....

[rory_20_uk]

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Never underestimate the attraction of the "Gaza Gavotte!"

[Fragony]

Isn't it a bit early for whisky?

[Hooahguy]

meanwhile, in other news, a rocket fired from gaza fell saturday on the city of Ashkelon...
last thursday, a rocket from gaza fell on sderot, but luckily no one was hurt in either case.

[HoreTore]

Is Olmert with his new threat of fierce and disprortionate strikes ripping up the IDF code of conduct that says.....The use of force must be proportional.
Must be getting closer to elections eh .
Whatever next? calling for 10 palestinians to be killed for every Israeli killed ...but hold on don't they already manage more than that .

I think it's currently 200 palestinians dead for every Israeli, including soldiers...

[CountArach]

meanwhile, in other news, a rocket fired from gaza fell saturday on the city of Ashkelon...
last thursday, a rocket from gaza fell on sderot, but luckily no one was hurt in either case.

And iIsrael claims they actually achieved something with all the violence

[Hooahguy]

and israel thought that they could trust hamas...

[Lord Winter]

and israel thought that they could trust hamas...

and two failed rockets validates the airstrikes?

[Strike For The South]

and two failed rockets validates the airstrikes?

Yes.

[Reenk Roink]

Hamas and the IDF/Israeli Government

[Furunculus]

and two failed rockets validates the airstrikes?

yes, provided the airstrikes serve some military purpose in reducing future capability to launch attacks, without disproportionate civilian casualties.

[Incongruous]

yes, provided the airstrikes serve some military purpose in reducing future capability to launch attacks, without disproportionate civilian casualties.

Ane then the airstrikes go and kill a few innocents, angering any surviving family scion, thus creating a stronger cycle of violence. Who said a "strong" economy and Western ideals led to effective strategies and an ability to defeat an enemy who is weaker than you?

Oh Israel, how innefective you are, how I hope you become less so.

[Tribesman]

meanwhile, in other news.......

Sorry Hooah I could have sworn they claimed mission accomplished last time.
Perhaps that indicates that bombing the hell out of people doesn't get the required result.

[HoreTore]

Sorry Hooah I could have sworn they claimed mission accomplished last time.

Well, at least they didn't say it while standing on an aircraft carrier...

[Fragony]

Perhaps that indicates that bombing the hell out of people doesn't get the required result.

Perhaps that indicates that shooting rockets doesn't get the required results

[LittleGrizzly]

Well that last attack obviously did well... but how the hell is Hamas functioning with so many members dead ?

Maybe grizzy had a point last time... the only way to defeat terrorists is hearts and minds... by just killing people your simply overloading Hamas recruitment lines...

[CountArach]

If the idea behind the invasion was to destroy Hamas as an institution, then Israel's plans have completely backfired.

The international community insists that it cannot channel billions of dollars in reconstruction aid to Hamas, and is calling for the involvement of the more moderate Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas. But Hamas is insisting on sole control of Gaza's rebuilding, as well as claiming moral leadership of the Palestinian people.

In the week since Israel and Hamas declared unilateral ceasefires to bring an end to more than three weeks of fighting, in which almost 1,500 Gazans died, the movement has acted rapidly to assert its control over assistance to civilians.

Sitting on huge cash reserves, Hamas has said that it will begin distributing emergency payments of €4,000 to those who have lost homes, and has already been handing out coupons for food as well as aid, some of it seized from foreign and international donors.
[...]
Mahmoud Musleh, a Palestinian legislative council member aligned with Hamas, added: "The organisation that should be talking for the Palestinian people is the PLO. But it has not been speaking. If it does not rehabilitate itself, there will be dramatic changes. At present it does not represent the Palestinian people. They can longer make decisions. They do not own the power."

[Hooahguy]

Sorry Hooah I could have sworn they claimed mission accomplished last time.
Perhaps that indicates that bombing the hell out of people doesn't get the required result.

well, what do you suggest?

[LittleGrizzly]

well, what do you suggest?

Perhaps abondining a useless and counter productive strategy (kill them all) and adopt a useful and proven strategy (hearts and minds)

[Idaho]

well, what do you suggest?

How about something really mind blowing and radical. Something like having a viable nation that isn't blockaded, doesn't have it's infrastructure repeatedly destroyed, and who's citizens are free to travel and meet family members? I realise this is pure pie in the sky stuff

[Tribesman]

well, what do you suggest?

Wow thats a hard one .
I really am going to have to stretch the brain cells on such a hard question .
So lets see errrrr....bombing
Damn , that doesn't work does it .
errrrr....unilateral declarations and unnegotiated actions
Damn that don't work either .
Errrr...hold on there must be something , some wierd concept that just seems to elude me at the moment , I am sure if I really push I will be able to think of it eventually .
errrrr....hey I know, its a really radical concept , such a strange concept that it really is out of this world so its not surprising people havn't considered it before .....but perhaps you know that outlandish thing called diplomacy where groups actually talk to each other might be an idea .

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Wow thats a hard one .
I really am going to have to stretch the brain cells on such a hard question .
So lets see errrrr....bombing
Damn , that doesn't work does it .
errrrr....unilateral declarations and unnegotiated actions
Damn that don't work either .
Errrr...hold on there must be something , some wierd concept that just seems to elude me at the moment , I am sure if I really push I will be able to think of it eventually .
errrrr....hey I know, its a really radical concept , such a strange concept that it really is out of this world so its not surprising people havn't considered it before .....but perhaps you know that outlandish thing called diplomacy where groups actually talk to each other might be an idea .

Tribes:

As you are well aware, "diplomacy" is a pretty general answer. I think Hooah was also asking for your suggestions on how/if to respond the violence and what kind of framework would be necessary --in your opinion -- for a negotiated deal.

[Tribesman]

Well lets see Seamus , how best to stop the rockets ?
Thats a hard one isn't it , lets think for a moment .
Didn't some people say they wouldn't fire rockets if the border crossings were opened ?
So I suppose a really crazy idea would be to open the border crossings and see if the rockets stopped .

[Fragony]

If the idea behind the invasion was to destroy Hamas as an institution, then Israel's plans have completely backfired.

So they have to use their war-chest that is filled with the money that was meant for aid to actually at least appear to give a crap, and you call that backfiring at Israel?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Well lets see Seamus , how best to stop the rockets ?
Thats a hard one isn't it , lets think for a moment .
Didn't some people say they wouldn't fire rockets if the border crossings were opened ?
So I suppose a really crazy idea would be to open the border crossings and see if the rockets stopped .

Okay, that's one point. How about the general response to violence? How about when some idiot, probably unsanctioned even by Hamas, launches a rocket anyway since the last time "worked." You've answered in the specific, but there is a larger concern you do not directly address.

[Husar]

Okay, that's one point. How about the general response to violence? How about when some idiot, probably unsanctioned even by Hamas, launches a rocket anyway since the last time "worked." You've answered in the specific, but there is a larger concern you do not directly address.

Call it a tragedy, tell the Palestinians that you won't bomb them for what he did. If you know more, ask the Palestinian authorities for help in the investigation. I mean generally what the US would do if someone from Canada came and made a chainsaw massacre in Illinois.
Haven't heard of many Canadians yet who think the US should be driven into the sea so maybe they kind of work together.

So what should the Palestinians do when a bunch of settlers come with Uzis, build houses on their land and have their kids throw stones at Palestinian kids?

[Don Corleone]

So, Hamas actually violates the cease-fire and fires two rockets and more than half the respondents in this thread are okay with that.

Israel threatens a response, and that's enough to evoke condemnation from the same crowd.

And yet you all insist that you don't take sides. Fascinating case study in self-delusion and the affects of rancor.

[Lemur]

A pessimistic take:

The prospects of any sort of conflict-ending agreement between Israelis and Palenstinians are slim to none.

Gaza has so many moving parts—antismuggling, opening the crossing points, dealing with securing a longer-term arrangement between Israel and Hamas on the security side, the prisoner issue, which is now higher priority for the Israelis than ever before, and of course, the tricky issue of reconstructing Gaza and providing enough humanitarian relief.