Gaza again

[Husar]

If I am to believe those of the pro-Hamas (or, rather, anti-Israel) bent, I would believe that these attacks made Hamas stronger - and yet weakened them so much that they have no control over who fires rockets, and that they certainly aren't responsible for the rockets.

In the words of one of my least favourite modern politicians, you must now choose between those two lies.

That is a good point, so you would say that the Israeli attacks did absolutely nothing to Hamas since you just called the only other two options lies?

[Gregoshi]

Gahza!

[Fragony]

Think about it:
1) Your house is destroyed
2) Your family is killed
3) Hamas comes up to and says "Here's 4000 Euroes, no strings attached"
4) Israel invades again

Who do you support?

Israel loses nothing here, those who made up their mind have made up their mind. All that money for rebuilding would normally go to rockets, so less money for rockets. Hamas is the moral victor in this for those who already felt they are the moral victor, the only thing that changes is that Hamas has less money to do their thing.

[CountArach]

Israel loses nothing here, those who made up their mind have made up their mind. All that money for rebuilding would normally go to rockets, so less money for rockets. Hamas is the moral victor in this for those who already felt they are the moral victor, the only thing that changes is that Hamas has less money to do their thing.

You honestly don't think that the invasion will turn Moderates into Radicals? If not there is obviously no point arguing with you.

[Idaho]

All that money for rebuilding would normally go to rockets...

You just start bashing away at that keyboard whether your brain is switched on or not. Do you really believe that home made rockets take up nearly all Hamas expediture? I'd be amazed if it took any more than 10%.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You just start baching away at that keyboard....

Typing in fugue?

[Tribesman]

Israel loses nothing here

Actually Frag Israel lost plenty , they showed that they are both weak and stupid .
They also showed that despite blocking the media there the new improved intensive propoganda program couldn't put out stories without them falling apart within hours which seriously lost them credibility .

I'd be amazed if it took any more than 10%.

I'd be amazed if they even spent that , I would have thought their overseas sponsors supplied all that crap for free .

[Fragony]

You honestly don't think that the invasion will turn Moderates into Radicals? If not there is obviously no point arguing with you.

Probably. But Hamas already hurts what it can hurt so what difference does it make if there are more radicals?

[rasoforos]

Probably. But Hamas already hurts what it can hurt so what difference does it make if there are more radicals?

Its a 'final solution' isnt it? Radicalize people so you have an excuse to kill them...

But of course these people are of a different colour and religion so why should you care...

[Fragony]

Its a 'final solution' isnt it? Radicalize people so you have an excuse to kill them...

But of course these people are of a different colour and religion so why should you care...

YEAH. Well no. Just pointing out that this backfiring to Israel like CountArach seems to think it is somewhat silly, it's not going to change anyone's mind, the only effect is less money for Hamas if actually spend the cash on rebuilding.

[rory_20_uk]

Rebuilding? Has Israel run out of targets?

[Tribesman]

what difference does it make if there are more radicals?

Since the problem is radicals then any attempt at progress should be directed at reducing the amount of radicals not increasing it .
So Frag was that another obvious case of

You just start bashing away at that keyboard whether your brain is switched on or not.

[Hooahguy]

Since the problem is radicals then any attempt at progress should be directed at reducing the amount of radicals not increasing it .

so if showing weakness encourages the radicals and showing strength also encourages them, what do you think should be done?
and lets assume that the borders have been opened and all that other stuff you want israel to do regarding gaza has been done.
then what should israel do to reduce the number of radicals, if opening the borders and stuff hasnt worked?

[Tribesman]

so if showing weakness encourages the radicals and showing strength also encourages them

It was the show of "strength" that exposed the weakness , just like it did in Lebanon .

[Fragony]

Since the problem is radicals then any attempt at progress should be directed at reducing the amount of radicals not increasing it .

They got their very own wall to wail at, they can be radical all they want, they will just have to make due with killing eachother to satisfy their needs

[Hooahguy]

It was the show of "strength" that exposed the weakness , just like it did in Lebanon .

answer the question.
typical of you to skirt around the question this way.

[Fragony]

I guess he ran out of bollox-dust

[Tribesman]

answer the question.

Ask a sensible question .
Or could you really imagine the scenario where reaching agreement will by magic increase the numbers of radicals and their support base instead of reducing it ?

[Hooahguy]

Ask a sensible question .
Or could you really imagine the scenario where reaching agreement will by magic increase the numbers of radicals and their support base instead of reducing it ?

i repeat, answer my perfectly sensible question.

if you want i will ask others in this forum and ask them if its a sensible question. then we will see.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

i repeat, answer my perfectly sensible question.

if you want i will ask others in this forum and ask them if its a sensible question. then we will see.

Actually he did answer it.

Tribesman asserted that the "strong" efforts made by the IDF in Gaza and Lebanon made no lasting impact on the terrorist organizations they were attempting to degrade, despite claims of success on a superficial level. He asserts that this shows inherent "weakness" in that Israel, while trying to demonstrate power and resolve, displayed an inability to critically damage their chosen targets.

By extension, he's suggesting that military force is doomed to failure in this context and that Israel needs to negotiate with Hamas, Hezbollah and the other groups, or more probably with the nation-states that underwrite them, and then stick to the deal as written even though some of the real fringers will kill Israelis regardless of any settlement agreement.

Mind you, it would have been kinder if he'd explained the comment rather than zinging in the tagline and moving on, but I suspect he enjoys leaving you confused and frustrated.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

That is a good point, so you would say that the Israeli attacks did absolutely nothing to Hamas since you just called the only other two options lies?

No, that is not what I said.

[Hooahguy]

Actually he did answer it.

Tribesman asserted that the "strong" efforts made by the IDF in Gaza and Lebanon made no lasting impact on the terrorist organizations they were attempting to degrade, despite claims of success on a superficial level. He asserts that this shows inherent "weakness" in that Israel, while trying to demonstrate power and resolve, displayed an inability to critically damage their chosen targets.

By extension, he's suggesting that military force is doomed to failure in this context and that Israel needs to negotiate with Hamas, Hezbollah and the other groups, or more probably with the nation-states that underwrite them, and then stick to the deal as written even though some of the real fringers will kill Israelis regardless of any settlement agreement.

Mind you, it would have been kinder if he'd explained the comment rather than zinging in the tagline and moving on, but I suspect he enjoys leaving you confused and frustrated.

Seamus, i asked him what he would do, if negotiation nor military force worked, to reduce the radicals.

also, asking the israelis to not do anything while israelis are dying is absurd. the politicians who werent doing anything would be voted out really quickly, and replaced with those who would act.

[Tribesman]

Oh looky replaced with those who would act.
By that you mean those that would use military strikes instead of negotiating
Well done Hooah , you see that the use of violence against the population makes the population more radical and turn to the more extreme groups .
oh sorry , the problem is that you can see it but don't actually see it .

I suspect he enjoys leaving you confused and frustrated.

Hey from what has been written here I thought that was his natural state

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Think about it:
1) Your house is destroyed
2) Your family is killed
3) Hamas comes up to and says "Here's 4000 Euroes, no strings attached"
4) Israel invades again

Who do you support?

Do you support Hamas killing Israel people? It's ok if they fire rockets in Israel and kill their people, but if Israel bombs the Palentines and kill the Hamas, it's not ok?

Besides, if more civilans die, maybe the Palinetines would wake up and realize if they keeping supporting terroists, they will suffer.


Sounds cruel, but it's the truth.

[Hooahguy]

Oh looky replaced with those who would act.
By that you mean those that would use military strikes instead of negotiating
Well done Hooah , you see that the use of violence against the population makes the population more radical and turn to the more extreme groups .

no, not that. you may not agree now, but if there were terrorist attacks in your area, you would demand your government to do something.
when i said replaced with those who would act i was referring to Seamus's post, on Israel sticking to the deal as written even though the radicals will kill Israelis regardless of any settlement agreement.
in this case, diplomacy hasnt worked. israelis are still dying (in this case) and that is not acceptable.

but you still haven't answered my question:
if diplomacy and military fails, what would you do?

[CountArach]

Do you support Hamas killing Israel people? It's ok if they fire rockets in Israel and kill their people, but if Israel bombs the Palentines and kill the Hamas, it's not ok?

... what? Seriously? I am opposed to violence of all kinds, which comes from being a pacifist. REGARDLESS of who does it, it is still murder. However, Israel is responsible for the deaths of more people and their reasons for doing so are less sound. Never once did I say that Hamas should kill Israelis...

Besides, if more civilans die, maybe the Palinetines would wake up and realize if they keeping supporting terroists, they will suffer.

Orrrrrrrrrrr, the far more likely response would be the situation I laid out - they become more radical themselves due to the loss of family members and support from the Hamas institution. Besides the majority of Palestinians do not support Terrorist acts, they are quite moderate - punishing the greater majority for the actions of the minority is in fact a breach of International law.

Sounds cruel, but it's the truth.

Its certainly one of those things.

[Hooahguy]

Orrrrrrrrrrr, the far more likely response would be the situation I laid out - they become more radical themselves due to the loss of family members and support from the Hamas institution. Besides the majority of Palestinians do not support Terrorist acts, they are quite moderate - punishing the greater majority for the actions of the minority is in fact a breach of International law.

its a 50-50 chance.
if israel doesnt do anything theres a big chance that more radicals will emerge. hamas will see it as a victory and will strengthen their cause. people will see that israel is weak, so they will begin to think that israel can be defeated.

it can go both ways.

[Hooahguy]

A Grad rocket fired from the Gaza Strip landed in an open area in central Ashkelon today. There were no reports of injuries or damage.

[CountArach]

its a 50-50 chance.
if israel doesnt do anything theres a big chance that more radicals will emerge. hamas will see it as a victory and will strengthen their cause. people will see that israel is weak, so they will begin to think that israel can be defeated.

it can go both ways.

No. Just no. Think about it - why would people become radicals WITHOUT ANY REASON?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

No. Just no. Think about it - why would people become radicals WITHOUT ANY REASON?

They don't without any reason. But if they finally see they can win, Hamas may well see a boost from those who want to see Israel destroyed, but weren't keen on joining a futile cause. Hence, boosted recruitment for Hamas. I can certainly see Hooah's point.