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Thread: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

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    Default WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    This is a thread to discuss the composition and capabilities of the Japanese military forces during WW2.

    I have not spent nearly as much time reading about the Pacific Theatre as the European one, and the Japanese have always been slightly perplexing to me. Two general narratives seem to have emerged surrounding their forces in historical literature. I have seen them portrayed as an advanced military with an emphasis on technology, training, and daring new doctrines. In contrast, they have also been depicted as an almost primitive force – relying on outdated weaponry (including swords) and the suicidal dedication of their troops instead of proper tactics (Banzai charges).

    And it seems history bears both representations out. In the beginning of their conflict with Western powers, Japan was unquestionably dominant – in the air, land and sea, kicking the colonial powers around at will. Their emphasis on combined arms tactics (air + land, not so much armor) on land rivaled the Germans, while their carrier-born naval operations were far beyond their counterparts. This all seems to have culminated with the attack on Pearl Harbor – an excellently planned and executed attack utilizing (for the time) advanced carrier, air, and torpedo technology along with highly trained personnel.

    From there, however, it all seems to have gone downhill. Besides some notably good late war airplane designs and other advanced tech that never made it into production, Japanese weaponry seemed to lacked updates throughout the war – including small arms, artillery, and ships. More importantly, Japanese tactics and training seemed to drop off both severely and quickly.

    As opposed to the Germans who arguably maintained a technological and tactical lead on their adversaries throughout the war and were at least able to keep their troops adequately trained during the latter years, the Japanese seemed to have been quickly outclassed by their American (& Allied) counterparts and forced to resort to the suicidal tactics mentioned above. Witness the air battles around the Marianas, where the Japanese did have significant numbers of decent aircraft yet no skilled pilots; or the many island battles where American casualties were just a fraction of their Japanese rivals.

    Finally, Japanese grand strategy during the war seems questionable to me. It seems to have revolved around risky resource grabs with no real coherent and cohesive overall goal other than the creation of a vague co-prosperity sphere. To that note, was the attack on the United States necessary? I know it was based largely on the oil embargo, but was there no other way to secure those resources? Even if the US had sued for peace, it does not seem like that would have guaranteed a lifting of said embargo – as the Japanese were never truly able to threaten the continental US.

    It is obvious looking back that the Japanese were destined to lose WW2 based on their industrial capacity, and much of the reason for their military’s sad state of affairs later in the war was due to that reality, but it seems to me that their leadership made some odd and/or poor decisions, and their once dominant capabilities fell disproportionately fast.

    What do you think?

    (Some interesting pics i found... )

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
























































    Spoils...



    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 02-02-2009 at 10:50.

  2. #2
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    I agree. The Japanese original goal was to sue for peace once they took resource rich regions. They were not dumb they knew they had limitations. However the oil embargo forced there hand. In a best case scenario they wanted to cripple the pacific fleet and make the "weak" Americans open the spigot again.

    They lost there best pilots at midway and never were able to train enough again (hence the kamakazie tactics) The zero was a dang fine plane they just never really improved on it.

    Towards the end the Japanese were still hoping that the island hopping casualties would make America come to the table and they may have been right. Truman and his brain trust were arguing about the invasion. Then of course came the bomb.

    The Japanese were a good honorable enemy. But in the end the Americans simply buried them.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    All the resources they needed were located in non-US colonies so technically they did not have to attack USA. Problem was if USA was going to allow that. If not then USA both had a strong navy as well as the bases to strike back from.

    So in short term it made sense to attack USA right away, deal a blow to their navy and quickly take the Philippines.

    The big flaw was of course that they expected that USA would either sue for peace or that Japan had the capability to defend against the full might of a USA gearing up for war. I guess they expected it to be a similar situation as the war against Russia back in 1904-05.


    CBR

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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    I have similar opinion as CBR.

    I just don't understand one thing - why didn't they attack Soviet Union? Ok, they were trounced in 1939, but in in 1941 Soviets were taking a heavy beating from Germany. Wouldn't it be smarter to attack them and possibly delay American entry in the war? It would be naive to think that US would stay out of the war entirely but this could have bought months. Soviets were already pressed to their limits in Europe, no chance they could reinforce Far East and at the same time Germans might have reached Moscow...

    The other interesting what if is what would have happened if carriers were at Pearl Harbour...
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 02-02-2009 at 02:46.

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    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    IIRC oil was running out so a delay would only have hurt Japan. Attacking the Soviets would also not really have benefited Japan in any way so why break the non-aggression treaty. Although I don't know how many troops were left in the far east, but in the few border skirmishes they had in the late thirties the Japanese army showed some big weaknesses so why take risks for no real benefit.

    One interesting scenario would have been if Japan did not attack USA. Could Roosevelt even get involved and declare war when America was not even interested in Europe. Even if they had and the war was long, how many losses would the public be willing to take and just how many warbonds would they have bought?


    CBR

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    The Japanese were a good honorable enemy. But in the end the Americans simply buried them.
    Their treatment of prisoners or war was repulsive as was their treatment of the Chinese people and many others. The disdain which too many Japanese of the era heaped upon anyone who was of a differing ethnicity darkens their honor.

    U.S. forces not only buried them logistically ( as we had Germany) but unlike the war in Europe we outclassed them in almost all categories from Late 1943 on.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Their treatment of prisoners or war was repulsive as was their treatment of the Chinese people and many others. The disdain which too many Japanese of the era heaped upon anyone who was of a differing ethnicity darkens their honor.

    U.S. forces not only buried them logistically ( as we had Germany) but unlike the war in Europe we outclassed them in almost all categories from Late 1943 on.
    Tough may have been a better word. I agree there is no love lost here. Many a granddad and great uncle have told me some horror stories.

    Apparently the Koreans wern't much better (according to my elders)
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  8. #8

    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR View Post

    One interesting scenario would have been if Japan did not attack USA. Could Roosevelt even get involved and declare war when America was not even interested in Europe. Even if they had and the war was long, how many losses would the public be willing to take and just how many warbonds would they have bought?


    CBR
    As I understand, realations were already at a resounding low right before pearl harbor. Everyone knew that war was coming it was just a matter of who started it and when.
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    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    I'll stick my in.

    It was pretty clear that the Japanese didn't have the resources to compete in a one vs one with the United States, never mind local resistances that needed to be put down, or the efforts put forth by the Commonwealth states. They couldn't afford to put forth extensive training, by all accounts. Perhaps it was the constant series of wars that had been gradually killing off their more skilled soldiery, and an inability, be it real or perceived, to put forth the resources needed to train skilled soldiers. As pointed out, the combat abilities of their pilots by late in the war were shockingly awful to anyone who had observed their campaigns over the last half-century. Particularly when oil is in short supply, it makes it extremely tough to get a lot of pilots the training needed to compete with the Allied pilots. So, basically, they stopped trying and did the most(kamikaze bombings) with what they felt they could hope to achieve.

    As for the bit about attacking the Soviets- for what? Japan had already seized Manchuria, and most of East Russia just frankly isn't worth picking a fight over, unless Tojo really fancied a summer vacation home in Siberia...

    EDIT: for the sake of scrolling sanity, could we get the pictures put in spoils?
    Last edited by seireikhaan; 02-02-2009 at 08:23.
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    It was pretty clear that the Japanese didn't have the resources to compete in a one vs one with the United States, never mind local resistances that needed to be put down, or the efforts put forth by the Commonwealth states. They couldn't afford to put forth extensive training, by all accounts. Perhaps it was the constant series of wars that had been gradually killing off their more skilled soldiery, and an inability, be it real or perceived, to put forth the resources needed to train skilled soldiers. As pointed out, the combat abilities of their pilots by late in the war were shockingly awful to anyone who had observed their campaigns over the last half-century. Particularly when oil is in short supply, it makes it extremely tough to get a lot of pilots the training needed to compete with the Allied pilots. So, basically, they stopped trying and did the most(kamikaze bombings) with what they felt they could hope to achieve.
    It seems the Japanese must have had an extremely small cadre of very well trained pilots. From what I've been reading, Guadalcanal took most of them.

    I know that the Germans had a controversial system that kept their aces in the air, instead of rotating them back for training purposes like the Allies(and war bond sales ). I can only assume the Japanese had the same setup. Even in '45, though, the Germans were still able to field a powerful and effective air corps. (Baseplate)

    What is really interesting to me is how fast the Japanese deteriorated. It seems like almost within a year to a year and a half they completely expended all of their best forces. They had excellent naval, air, and ground forces - yet, seemingly, no effort was made to replace them. Resources, resources...

    As for the bit about attacking the Soviets- for what? Japan had already seized Manchuria, and most of East Russia just frankly isn't worth picking a fight over, unless Tojo really fancied a summer vacation home in Siberia...
    Well, the Siberian divisions that stopped the Germans at the outskirts of Moscow were pulled from the border with Manchuria. It can be argued that, had the Axis coordinated their efforts better and been able to knock Russia out of the war, Japan would have benefitted from German support.

    As CBR said, it could have been disastrous for the Japanese. It may have been worth it to open a second from against Russia, however.

    EDIT: for the sake of scrolling sanity, could we get the pictures put in spoils?
    Good idea!
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 02-02-2009 at 11:06.

  11. #11
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    It seems the Japanese must have had an extremely small cadre of very well trained pilots. From what I've been reading, Guadalcanal took most of them.

    I know that the Germans had a controversial system that kept their aces in the air, instead of rotating them back for training purposes like the Allies(and war bond sales ). I can only assume the Japanese had the same setup. Even in '45, though, the Germans were still able to field a powerful and effective air corps. (Baseplate)

    What is really interesting to me is how fast the Japanese deteriorated. It seems like almost within a year to a year and a half they completely expended all of their best forces. They had excellent naval, air, and ground forces - yet, seemingly, no effort was made to replace them. Resources, resources...
    I'd say Bodenplatte showed Luftwaffe for what it was in early '45: an empty shell of what it had been earlier in the war.

    Midway and the horrible attrition of Guadalcanal took out lots of Japanese veterans so within around 15 months from Pearl Harbor the Japanese airforce had deteriorated fast. But the Luftwaffe experience was very similar actually. Sure it had been fighting for much longer and had taken losses but it was nothing compared to what it experienced in 1943 when it finally faced increasing allied superiority on all 3 fronts, especially from the summer 1943 where Luftwaffe ended up quitting most of its Mediterranean and Eastern Front fighter activity and focused on protecting Germany.

    So already by the end of 1943 Luftwaffe was in a pretty desperate state, with average monthly losses of around 10+ % of ready fighter pilots, and during the first half of 1944 pilot losses quickly rose to 20+ % a month.

    So both the German and Japanese airforce was wrecked in a year or so when USA entered the two theaters of war. Neither of them were prepared for such attrition and they could not replace the losses.

    Although I don't have actual numbers, I could imagine that the Luftwaffe had a slight advantage as fighters shot down near a frontline or over Germany had a higher chance of not being lost whereas the Japanese fight over Guadalcanal meant a near 100% pilot loss for every plane shot down.


    CBR

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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    It seems the Japanese must have had an extremely small cadre of very well trained pilots. From what I've been reading, Guadalcanal took most of them.

    I know that the Germans had a controversial system that kept their aces in the air, instead of rotating them back for training purposes like the Allies(and war bond sales ). I can only assume the Japanese had the same setup. Even in '45, though, the Germans were still able to field a powerful and effective air corps. (Baseplate)

    What is really interesting to me is how fast the Japanese deteriorated. It seems like almost within a year to a year and a half they completely expended all of their best forces. They had excellent naval, air, and ground forces - yet, seemingly, no effort was made to replace them. Resources, resources...



    Well, the Siberian divisions that stopped the Germans at the outskirts of Moscow were pulled from the border with Manchuria. It can be argued that, had the Axis coordinated their efforts better and been able to knock Russia out of the war, Japan would have benefitted from German support.

    As CBR said, it could have been disastrous for the Japanese. It may have been worth it to open a second from against Russia, however.



    Good idea!
    Fleet Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, the man who planned the Pearl Harbour attack. Knew full well what Japan's limitations were (time and resources, oil chiefly). He was of the opinion that Japan must defeat the US in 1 years time or they'd be finished. He also predicted that the decisive battle to decide whose way things would go would come in 6 months from Pearl Harbour. We call this the battle of Midway. And he also opined that to win against the US they would have to dictate terms from Washington DC.

    Should hostilities once break out between Japan and the United States, it is not enough that we take Guam and the Philippines, nor even Hawaii and San Francisco. To make victory certain, we would have to march into Washington and dictate the terms of peace in the White House. I wonder if our politicians.. [who speak so lightly of a Japanese-American war].. have confidence as to the final outcome and are prepared to make the necessary sacrifices.
    He had studied at U.S. Naval War College and Harvard University. He knew the US pretty well.

    The only way the Japanese could have helped Germany against the Soviets would be if they weren't engaged in a full scale (but undeclared) war with China. Japan's Chinese front had something like 3 million troops.
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    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Well, the Siberian divisions that stopped the Germans at the outskirts of Moscow were pulled from the border with Manchuria. It can be argued that, had the Axis coordinated their efforts better and been able to knock Russia out of the war, Japan would have benefitted from German support.

    As CBR said, it could have been disastrous for the Japanese. It may have been worth it to open a second from against Russia, however.
    The point, however, is this: when it comes down to it, Russia is simply too big. Let's Japan occupies half of Siberia. And? How does this knock the Soviets out? At this point, Siberia is vast, sparsely populated, industrially desolate, and the winter can kill you. Russia could afford to temporarily fork over large amounts of their eastern lands if it meant having to shift troops to stop the Germans. It would take at least two years of campaigning for the Japanese to put any actual, meaningful pressure on the Soviets. To make the campaign westwards means one of two things: a four month per year campaign through Siberia, whereupon the campaign would have to cease due to inclement weather, or else to trudge through the Gobi desert, which would likely be more disastrous. Simply put, it wouldn't have been possible to be able to apply real and meaningful pressure in time due to the sheer logistical nightmare it would have presented to any invading force.
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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    Soviets intended to use those forces against the Japanese should they attack. Only after spies confirmed Japan won't attack were those forced moved. So, in theory, just by pinning down Siberian divisions Japan could have helped Germany a lot.

    Other points still stand, though. Although it may have helped Germany, there would have been little gain for Japan. Maybe if Germans managed to take Moscow in the spring and if Soviet Union capitulated, but that is highly unlikely.

  15. #15

    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR View Post
    I'd say Bodenplatte showed Luftwaffe for what it was in early '45: an empty shell of what it had been earlier in the war.
    Well, yes and no.

    Baseplate was certainly not short on the errors and inexperience that would be associated with the attritional nature of the latter part of the war that you mentioned. The precision of the planning and the skill of many of the pilots involved could definitely be described as a shell of former Luftwaffe operations, as well.

    However, Baseplate was a tactical success. Was it the kind of massively lopsided victory the German air corps had grown accustomed to in their heyday? No, but it was a success nonetheless. Despite its numerous problems at this stage, the Luftwaffe was able to plan and execute a powerful strike against the far superior Allied air forces. IIRC, the Allies lost around 500 planes while the Germans lost only half that number, and a large portion of that was due to friendly fire losses due to a failure to alert the flak batteries that German planes would be flying over them. Had American manufacturing not have been so overwhelmingly superior, such a loss would have been a major blow to the Allied air corps - achieved 4 months before the war in Europe was over.

    Contrast that to the Japanese operations at the time, which seemingly revolved around the best ways in which to hurl their planes into American ships. That relates back to my original sense that the Japanese deterioration was suprisingly acute.

    Quote Originally Posted by khaan
    The point, however, is this: when it comes down to it, Russia is simply too big. Let's Japan occupies half of Siberia. And? How does this knock the Soviets out?
    Well, conceivably the effect would be cumulative. Russia was not the monolithic giant with endless supplies of men and material that it is sometimes portrayed to be. Just like any nation, the USSR had its limit - as has been discussed recently in relation to Lend-Lease. In 1941, its breaking point was surely smaller than in the years after.

    It can be argued that had Japan applied pressure in the East at that critical time, allowing Germany to take Moscow and the other major cities and push the Russians behind the Urals, they're capabilities would largely be diminished.

    Surely Stalin may have been able to use the vastness of the environment to elude total defeat for a time, but even with as much Russian industry as he was able to move - being trapped in the middle of undeveloped Russia would have him strangled for resources and the ability to launch offensive operations.

    In any event, I believe better coordination between the two powers leading to a Japanese attack on Russia would have been a far better decision for the overall Axis effort than bringing the US into the war. Of course, taking their entire fleet into the middle of the Pacific and scuttling it would have also been a far better decision than bringing the US in, so hindsight is 20/20.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 02-02-2009 at 22:28.

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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    An interesting, yet generalized, article on the Japanese marines, who made life very difficult on Tarawa. If anybody has anything more specific on the SNLF's, it would be much appreciated.

    http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/SNLF.html

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The SNLFs in combat 1941-1945


    In December 1941 several Special Naval Landing Forces participated in the Japanese invasion of the Philippines, and especially the multiple landing operations aimed at the main northern island of Luzon. The naval command had created the "Sasebo Combined Naval Landing Force" by grouping together the 1st and 2nd Sasebo SNLF's, under the command of Navy Commander Kunizo Mori. From this formation 490 men were put ashore with the first wave in Lamon Bay, while another 490 first occupied Batan Island in the Luzon Strait, then moved on (accompanied by a seaplane tender) to land on Camiguin Island, where the Japanese intended to establish a base for their floatplanes. However, the seas surrounding the island were found to be too rough for operating the seaplanes, and so the force was withdrawn to Formosa.


    The main Luzon landing at Legaspi had 575 men from the 1st Kure SNLF in its forefront. Another 245 men of the 1st Kure accompanied the third Luzon landing at Davao, and then reboarded their ships and occuppied Jolo Island. The 2nd Yokosuka SNLF acted in a conventional amphibious role to occupy Calayan Island in the Luzon Strait, where the Japanese hastily hacked out a small emergency landing strip, before returning to their base on Formosa. A smaller, more improvised SNLF known as the Amatsukaze SNLF-- organized from shipboard marine contingents from the cruiser Jintsu and the destroyer Kuroshio, and composed of less than 30 men-- also landed in the Davao area, its mission to release Japanese civilians who had been interned by the Filipinos. It set 29 Japanese nationals free. A day earlier the Bandasan SNLF, comprising about 60 men from the same two ships, also landed at Davao with the same intent, and "liberated" two locations where Japanese had been interned, rescuing a total of 435 Japanese civilians. But these ad hoc landing forces were not really in the same category as the standard SNLF's, and were essentially one-shot expedients scared up to deal with a specific situation [ 1 ].


    Meanwhile, also in December 1941, the Maizuru Independent SNLF Company provided 350 men (plus one company of 6th Base Force with 310 men) to attack the US Pacific outpost of Wake Island. When the first assault was repulsed by the determined resistance of the small US Marine garrison there, reinforcements from the 2nd Maizuru SNLF, which had been part of the garrison force at the Japanese Navy's main central Pacific base of Truk, were sent in to finally overwhelm the outnumbered Americans and secure the island.


    Operations aimed against Dutch East Indies and the great oil supplies Japan coveted also began in December 1941, and again the Special Naval Landing Forces were in the forefront. The 2nd Yokosuka SNLF naval infantrymen came in by boat to land at Miri in British Borneo, and within two and a half hours had secured its objective, the Lutong oil refinery. Eight days later elements of the 2nd Yokosuka SNLF carried out another landing at Kuching, the main port of south Borneo. The 1st and 2nd Kure, 1st and 2nd Sasebo, and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Yokosuka SNLF's were all detailed for the prolonged Indonesian operations. In January 1942, the 2nd Kure SNLF (along with one Army regiment) landed at Tarakan Island, Borneo. As related in the previous post concerning airborne operations, the 1st Yokosuka SNLF paratroopers carried out Japan's first ever combat air drop at Menado on Celebes, on January 11th. Four hours before the airborne landings, the 1st Sasebo SNLF had come ashore by sea a bit further north. Later in the month, 1st Kure SNLF occupied Amboina Island, site of an important airfield. Finally, in late February 1942, the Sasebo Combined Special Naval Landing Force were landed amphibiously and fought as ground troops in the battle for Koepang on Timor Island. Several days before the 3rd Yokosuka SNLF (a naval parachute unit) was airdropped at Koepang, suffering heavy casualties in the forthcoming battles.


    The early successes of the SNLF's led to the creation of further such units, although it is possible that some drop-off in quality of the men's training and combat effectiveness was already noticeable in this "second wave." The Special Naval Landing Forces thus continued to play a role in Japanese Navy offensive operations, which were now concentrated primarily in the Solomons and New Guinea area. Both the older and new SNLF's became involved. The 3rd Kure SNLF led the way when the Japanese landed on Tulagi to establish a seaplane base there (also occupied the adjacent small islands of Gavutu and Tanambogo). These units put up a pretty fierce resistance against the US Marine landings there in August. Meanwhile the 5th Yokosuka SNLF was the only real fighting force established on Guadalcanal once the Japanese started to construct an airstrip there-- in contrast to the forces on and around Tulagi, these essentially melted away into the jungle when the Marines started coming ashore.


    On New Guinea, also in August 1942, the Japanese conceived a fairly ambitious island to secure Milne Bay on the island's eastern tip. The initial landing force conisted of 612 men from the 5th Kure SNLF, 197 men of the 5th Sasebo SNLF, and 362 (non-combat) troops of the 16th Naval Construction Unit. This force was commanded by Navy Commander Shojiro Hayashi. These landed from two transport ships, escorted by cruisers, in a driving rain on the night of August 25th. The plan called for an additional 353 men of the 5th Sasebo SNLF, carried in seven large wooden motor barges, to land on the Solomon Sea side and make a separate approach by marching over the mountains. But the Japanese plan miscarried almost from the start. The Allies, too, were interested in constructing an airfield at Milne Bay, and they in fact had 4,500 Australian infantry troops in the area already, along with almost the same number of artillerymen, engineers, and construction troops (including 1,300 Americans). Even after reinforcements were sent in on August 29th, in the form of 568 men from the 3rd Kure SNLF and 200 SNLF soldiers (fighting as infantry) from the 5th Yokosuka SNLF (with them arrived Navy Commander Yano, who then took over as he had seniority over Hayashi), this left the Japanese outnumbered two to one in combat troops, and almost four to one overall, hardly promising conditions for an offensive. The Japanese naval troops did put ashore two light tanks, but these soon got bogged down in deep mud and were not able to accomplish much.


    After August 1942 the Special Naval Landing Forces found themselves fighting a much different kind of war. Now they were almost exclusively involved in defensive fighting, holding various island outposts against the growing US offensive. In the Solomons, the next battle after Guadalcanal centered on New Georgia. The Japanese Navy in this area had the 6th Kure and 7th Yokosuka SNLF's (the latter sometimes cited as an example of the deficiencies in equipment, training, and hence combat performance which came to characterize SNLF operations as the war progressed). These were joined together as the 8th Combined Special Naval Landing Force, under Rear-Admiral Minoru Ota*. In the New Georgia fighting, the 6th Kure SNLF was initially on New Georgia itself (with one company on Rendova, which was actually the first island in the group attacked by the Americans). The 7th Yokosuka SNLF was brought over from the adjacent island of Kolombangara to reinforce the New Georgia force as the battle developed.


    Perhaps the most famous defensive stand by the Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces came at Tarawa Atoll in November 1943. Here there were no Japanese Army troops-- only 1,497 men of the 7th Sasebo SNLF, and a little more than 1,100 members of the 3rd Special Base Unit. With more than 100 machineguns pointed at the Marine landing bases and fifty various pieces of artillery supporting them, the Japanese naval troops in their strong bunkers withstood a ferocious bombardment and still emerged to cause one of the worst bloodbaths in US military history. More than 3,000 Marines became casualties before the vicious fighting was over, one of the few times in the entire Pacific war when the Japanese forces actually inflicted greater casualties than they themselves suffered on any given island. The Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces would continue to be encountered in most subsequent major campaigns-- they were present on Saipan (where the paratroopers of the 1st and 3rd Yokosuka SNLF's, consolidated into a single unit, were essentially wiped out fighting as conventional infantry), they were on Iwo Jima Island, and naval ground troops of all kinds were very prevalent in the fighting in Manila and Manila Bay in the Phillipines (it was naval ground forces, in defiance of Yamashita's orders, who defended the city of Manila and turned it into a horrible massacre, running amok among the civilian population, about 100,000 of whom died, before the city was liberated. Naval infantry also held Corregidor and several smaller fortress islands). And there were about 10,000 naval ground troops on Okinawa, the actions of Ota's group being described done in notes. But most of the Special Naval Landing Forces and the more improvised naval ground units raised in the final two years of the war were a far cry from the well-trained units which led the way in the early successful Pacific offensives [ 2 ].
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 02-02-2009 at 22:12.

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    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Well, conceivably the effect would be cumulative. Russia was not the monolithic giant with endless supplies of men and material that it is sometimes portrayed to be. Just like any nation, the USSR had its limit - as has been discussed recently in relation to Lend-Lease. In 1941, its breaking point was surely smaller than in the years after.

    It can be argued that had Japan applied pressure in the East at that critical time, allowing Germany to take Moscow and the other major cities and push the Russians behind the Urals, they're capabilities would largely be diminished.

    Surely Stalin may have been able to use the vastness of the environment to elude total defeat for a time, but even with as much Russian industry as he was able to move - being trapped in the middle of undeveloped Russia would have him strangled for resources and the ability to launch offensive operations.

    In any event, I believe better coordination between the two powers leading to a Japanese attack on Russia would have been a far better decision for the overall Axis effort than bringing the US into the war. Of course, taking their entire fleet into the middle of the Pacific and scuttling it would have also been a far better decision than bringing the US in, so hindsight is 20/20.
    Couple points:

    1) My point wasn't so much that the Soviets themselves would have worn the Japanese down. Moreso, the logistical challenge of causing any kind of meaningful dent in the Soviet empire from the east is simply mindboggling. The only city of any value in the eastern Siberia was probably Vladivostok- and that's on the coast, not of great value when the campaign would have needed to turn to the west. Simply put, trying to make a prolonged push into Russia would have been suicidal. Winter was too long, too harsh. Supply lines would have been a nightmare. There's simply too much land, too much winter, not enough civilized areas to support a marching army, particularly when Japan was still having to keep their territories in East Asia subjugated.

    2) Let's say Japan, instead of attacking Pearl Harbor, instead attacks the Soviets. What does this do to America's involvement in the war? Would America have come to the aid of their allies in western Europe regardless of Pearl Harbor? If so... what does this do to the resources America puts forth in Western Europe? I realize the general strategy was "Germany first, Japan second", but if Japan had not attacked America, would a war in the Pacific been delayed? America may have been able to make a more concerted push in Europe against the Germans, negating any potential benefit from the Soviets lacking the extra troops. As Machiavelli put it "Don't delay a war when it will only come later, to your disadvantage". I think America would have come to the battlefields of Europe regardless an attack by Japan. And, I believe, this would have worked to the detriment of Germany.

    Caveat- of course, if Hitler hadn't totally lost his mind, he could have taken Moscow regardless and cut off a large portion of Soviet rails that ran through the city. This would have likely forced the Soviets out of the war regardless of Japanese aid.
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    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    The Japanese failure in WW2 is a failure of strategy. All of the forces that were directed at sandy beaches and jungle swamps should have fallen on the U.S. alone. The strike at PH should have been coordinated with a simultaneous assault on Midway. The IJN had enough carriers to do this. Then take Hawaii with all the divisions that can float backed up by ten carriers vs. three U.S. The U.S. military was totally unprepared to defend the West Coast in 1942. FDR would have to sign a truce on the deck of the Yamato in the Japanese colony of Los Angeles. With the U.S. knocked out, taking the rest of the Pacific would have been a fait accompli. Boom baby!
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    That is similar to what I always thought.
    when the japanese attacked the US had almost nothing but a few ships in the theatre.
    Actually loads of ships but almost no planes and the ones there were mostly old so the japanese could probably have secured air superiority easily and the rest would have been securing the craters, similar to the modern US strategy.


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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Miles View Post
    The Japanese failure in WW2 is a failure of strategy. All of the forces that were directed at sandy beaches and jungle swamps should have fallen on the U.S. alone. The strike at PH should have been coordinated with a simultaneous assault on Midway. The IJN had enough carriers to do this. Then take Hawaii with all the divisions that can float backed up by ten carriers vs. three U.S. The U.S. military was totally unprepared to defend the West Coast in 1942. FDR would have to sign a truce on the deck of the Yamato in the Japanese colony of Los Angeles. With the U.S. knocked out, taking the rest of the Pacific would have been a fait accompli. Boom baby!
    Thats what the civilians in Los Angeles thought. There is no way this would happen. For the simple fact of the resources it would've cost. Not to mention the Japanese couldn't had committed land forces and kept supply lines open.

    The Japanese mistake was attacking the USA in the first place.
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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Miles View Post
    The Japanese failure in WW2 is a failure of strategy. All of the forces that were directed at sandy beaches and jungle swamps should have fallen on the U.S. alone. The strike at PH should have been coordinated with a simultaneous assault on Midway. The IJN had enough carriers to do this. Then take Hawaii with all the divisions that can float backed up by ten carriers vs. three U.S. The U.S. military was totally unprepared to defend the West Coast in 1942. FDR would have to sign a truce on the deck of the Yamato in the Japanese colony of Los Angeles. With the U.S. knocked out, taking the rest of the Pacific would have been a fait accompli. Boom baby!
    Maybe in an alternate universe. They didn't have the manpower or the resources to do that. Their oil reserves couldn't last a year.

    The reason they invaded all those islands was to get oil (and other resources, not just oil). The best Japan could have hoped for was crippling US fleet, getting withing striking distance of American Pacific coast and pray that US would sue for peace rather than let its western cities be bombed. Their entire strategy was that US act similar to Russia in 1905.

    But an actual invasion of continental US across the Pacific??? Impossible... That would have been more ludicrous than trying to reach Moscow through Siberia...

  22. #22

    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    As I understand it the plan was to knock out all the US' aircraft carriers at Pearl Harbour so that they couldn't defend the Pacific. With freedom to cruise around the pacific Japan would be able to threaten the west coast with bombing raids rather than a land invasion and this should have been enough to make the US come to terms.

    Yamamoto predicted that the Japanese could invade freely for a year and then would be in trouble and he was fully aware that Japan would lose once they failed to catch the aircraft carriers at Pearl Harbour. Also he was supposedly against declaring war on the US in the first place but was overulled.
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    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    The Japanese eventually got around to a very possible Midway invasion, so that they could invade Hawaii. Nothing less than miraculous luck really made it impossible even that late in 1942. All of the supplies and fuel that were used to gobble up empty islands should have been directed right from the start at the U.S. The Japanese seemed to have the supplies to overrun the south Pacific from their logistics base at Truk so I think that they could have done the same to the West Coast from a base in Hawaii.
    Remember, The U.S. was totally unprepared to defend the West Coast. The Japanese army that had raped Nanking is most likely going to take L.A., even if they will run out of supplies. Now you assure FDR that the Japs don’t have the logistics to win a protracted war and so what if one quarter of the U.S. aircraft industry is in or around L.A. The President would have to choose to watch California undergo a destruction that would have made Sherman’s march to the sea pale in comparison, just to win this logistics war. In the meantime, Britain and Russia would surely starve as the U.S. was fighting for its life. PH was a tragic embarrassment. This would have been a disaster that could only be avoided by a truce.
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    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    And this article shows the logistical impossibility of invading Pearl Harbor. http://www.combinedfleet.com/pearlops.htm

    But one Japanese error at Pearl Harbor was that they did not send in a third wave to hit the fuel depots and machine shops. Another error was not using their submarines to hit US freighters and tankers when they had a good chance at doing a lot of damage in the first months.

    That could have set back the US effort maybe a year back or more. Of course one can doubt if it would have changed the overall outcome.


    CBR

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    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    And that article by a PC gamer discusses an invasion after the conquest of all the jungles that the Japanese wasted their effort on. That probably is true, except, that I ‘m talking about a DoW on the U.S. only, followed by a blitzkrieg aimed at the West Coast. Every bit of logistics that was used to move troops thousands of miles to take places like Rabaul, etc., instead is aimed at Midway and then Hawaii. The entire IJN focused on one immediate goal, Invasion U.S.A. We can be very jaded today about how incredibly lucky we were, but that doesn’t change the situation as it really was. The Japanese had the best fighter in the world, pilots with thousands of combat hours, more carriers and battlewagons, better optics, heavy cruisers with killer torpedoes, a light infantry army that didn’t need miles of trucks to supply it, and years of experience at the business at hand. Somehow it takes more logistics to take L.A. than to do all the other conquests that the Japanese managed instead? That’s everyone’s point, right?
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  26. #26
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    The error of Japan was not to attack the US or to not try a land invasion of the west coast, but to think that this war was similar to 19th-century wars.

    They expected the US to surrender right after PH, just like Russia did in 1905 after losing (badly) its Eastern navy.
    The thing is, the US were contempting entering the war against Germany, and FDR perfectly knew that what was going on was a total war on a global scale. Not some 'I defeated you once so you have to accept my peace treaty" old kind of war, but a "We'll fight till one of us is almost dead and beg for his life" one.

    Unlike Germany, Japan wasn't ready for a total-full-scale war. Things got out of hands in China because the Kuomintang (and later, the CCP) were too stuborn to give up, and because the local japanese generals went crazy (against the IJA headquarters' opinion), not because Japan wanted to conquer whole China and exterminate the Chinese population. They did it because they couldn't force the nationalists to accept peace, and thus, had to fight to death.

    I'm pretty sure that even a land invasion in California wouldn't have been enough to impose a peace treaty to the US. Japan would likely have had to invade the whole country, and completely defeat the will of the american population, which is probably even more impossible than invading Russia.

  27. #27
    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    After the war, Stalin confided in his daughter that at one point, his staff raced out to his dacha, where normally he was never disturbed, to tell him that German scout units had been sighted near Moscow. Stalin told her that he was initially certain that his staff had come out to shoot him and surrender to the Fascists. What if his staff had done this? If Stalin was fearful, then it came that close. A smug plan to defeat a nation over several years by burying them with numbers doesn’t work if you are beaten in several months.
    FDR wanted to beat Hitler first, perhaps because of Einstein’s expressed fear that the Nazis were developing the bomb. A Japanese invasion would certainly monopolize U.S. resources. T-34’s may have stopped the Wehrmacht, but lend-lease fed the Russians and the UK. To stop the Japanese in the U.S., FDR would have to turn his back on Stalin and Churchill. The Japanese don’t have to cross the Mississippi and take D.C. FDR could not afford an invasion and a protracted war in the U.S. Imagine a Bataan death march by millions of Californians.
    Last edited by Agent Miles; 02-04-2009 at 19:59.
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  28. #28
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Well, yes and no.

    However, Baseplate was a tactical success. Was it the kind of massively lopsided victory the German air corps had grown accustomed to in their heyday? No, but it was a success nonetheless. Despite its numerous problems at this stage, the Luftwaffe was able to plan and execute a powerful strike against the far superior Allied air forces. IIRC, the Allies lost around 500 planes while the Germans lost only half that number, and a large portion of that was due to friendly fire losses due to a failure to alert the flak batteries that German planes would be flying over them. Had American manufacturing not have been so overwhelmingly superior, such a loss would have been a major blow to the Allied air corps - achieved 4 months before the war in Europe was over.

    Contrast that to the Japanese operations at the time, which seemingly revolved around the best ways in which to hurl their planes into American ships. That relates back to my original sense that the Japanese deterioration was suprisingly acute.
    Looking at losses provided by Wikipedia which comes from the book " Bodenplatte: The Luftwaffe's Last Hope" then the Allied lost 336 planes and had 190 damaged versus Luftwaffe losses of 271 lost and 65 damaged. Destroying 24% more than you lose could be considered a tactical success I guess but when looking at permanent pilot losses (213 KIA or POW) for the Luftwaffe, while the allied lost nowhere near that as many planes were destroyed on the ground, then it was an utter failure.

    If this had been an operation in a very short war of a few days duration, then the pilot losses would not have mattered that much perhaps and it could even be considered a small success, especially if damaged planes cannot be repaired in time, but when you are fighting a long war of attrition you dont want to waste pilots like that.

    To compare with Japan: Late '44 the average Navy fighter pilot had 40 hours of flying time and the Army apparently were down to 60 or 70 hours. But have found one claim that said 100 hours for the Navy so not sure which number is correct.

    Luftwaffe training had been cut down to around 100-110 hours by '44. In the summer that year a survey of their pilots found that a majority of the pilots had seen between 8 to 30 days active service. Only a small percentage had an average of 3 months of service.

    So depending on what number we pick the two airforces either had similar training or it was worse for the Japanese. If it was worse that would partially explain why their late war performance was worse than the Luftwaffe.

    Sources for numbers:
    http://www.allworldwars.com/The%20De...r%20Force.html
    http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/F/i/Fighter_Pilots.htm
    http://www.combinedfleet.com/ijnaf.htm


    CBR
    Last edited by CBR; 02-04-2009 at 20:02.

  29. #29
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Miles View Post
    Somehow it takes more logistics to take L.A. than to do all the other conquests that the Japanese managed instead? That’s everyone’s point, right?
    A quick look on a map (Google maps will do just fine) will show you the difference in distance from Japan-US west coast compared with Japan-Indonesia.

    Not only do you need to have shipping capacity to transport the units you also need shipping to supply them. Japan barely had capacity enough to take its objectives in SE Asia.


    CBR
    Last edited by CBR; 02-04-2009 at 20:21.

  30. #30
    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: WW2: The Composition and Capabilities of the Japanese Military

    Right, so the Japanese live off the land while they destroy a quarter of the U.S. aircraft industry and slaughter millions of Americans. How many ships fed the Japanese soldiers that surrendered in the Philipines in the 1960’s? You want FDR to let Europe starve while you scorch the west coast? I don't think that Churchill or Stalin would agree to a Japan first strategy.
    As you point out, Japan took those objectives in SE Asia.
    Last edited by Agent Miles; 02-04-2009 at 20:51.
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