Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[athanaric]

Ethiopian cavalry.

You forgot to mention that they have high lethality longswords too. Ethiopian units are great. You can make a whole functioning army out of just these four unit types.

[Cute Wolf]

According to my experience when trying to use them.... they are completely useless brats on the field... everyone pawns them (except pantodapoi of course) ....

[Aemilius Paulus]

According to my experience when trying to use them.... they are completely useless brats on the field... everyone pawns them (except pantodapoi of course) ....

I would say they are surprisingly good. Very surprisingly. Especially against elites. With the blacksmith, they get 10 AP attack, 20 armour, and four 6 attack javelins. Not bad for 1173 mnai, eh? Even without the AP bonus they would be great, but with AP they are marvellous. They are still low-cost medium infantry though, and treat them that way.

[Cute Wolf]

Their Ethiophians counterparts from Saba pawn them very quickly, when tryying to took ethiophia (when it revolt to Saba).... and they can't stand long against phalanx... that's the reason of My Ptolemaioic Defeat against Seleukids at... Alexandreia.... Half Stack of them can't take even a little time in fornt of phalanx... (they ROUTS!!!) that even hoplitai haploi will hold for a significant time... (The Phalanx is Pantodapoi!!! ; If Argyraspides I wouldn't complain about them)

[Watchman]

Dude, they most definitely aren't supposed to so much as DENT a phalanx from the front... flankers, anyone ?
Those guys are more or less supposed to act as comparatively low-cost, versatile "jeep" infantry, not duke it out with the big boys in a slugging match. Conversely IIRC the Ethiopian swordsmen (who lack AP, if memory serves) are more of a relatively high-class "light assault" unit...

[Aemilius Paulus]

In EB, only very heavy cavalry can dent a phalanx from the front. Rarely can an infantry unit get past the pikes to dish some damage. And Cute_Wolf, it is pwn or own(ed). Not pawn.

[Watchman]

"Pwnt" or "pwnd" also sees use. As occasionally does "pwnz0red", but I think that's SO last week now...

[Aemilius Paulus]

Yeah, but I do not think anyone say "pawned", do they? Or maybe that is the newest thing out there

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

"pawned" is soooo last second .

[Celtic_Punk]

I think you guys need to stop butchering the English language, go out and get laid.


by the way, hippies are total gobshiites

Overhand spear cavalry are for treehuggers!!!

[Aemilius Paulus]

I think you guys need to stop butchering the English language, go out and get laid.

For one, my grammar and vocabulary is impeccable. Anyone who knows me can attest to this, especially if they are from the EB Tavern. Secondly, I am asexual, so that crosses out the second option as well.

[Celtic_Punk]

but uh what? um... oh....... You just need to meet the right girl dude. Maybe a ying to your yang. or a yang to your yang. (some people like people exactly like them... I'd probably drop a girl if she was exactly like me.. I'm quite the self loathing insufferable bastard)

[Watchman]

"pawned" is soooo last second .

And cheap.

[satalexton]

I am asexual

Ahh, so you reproduce by shedding off pieces of yourself?

[Zett]

I think you guys need to stop butchering the English language, go out and get laid.


by the way, hippies are total gobshiites

Overhand spear cavalry are for treehuggers!!!

I agree, Hippeis are not very evective, they are worse against infantry (no charge) and are not significant better against other cavalry types in melee that can couch their spears/lances. They are only good to hunt down routers and to distract enemy flankers.

By the way, if you speak about butchering languages, please have in mind, that it's Hippeis and not hippies (). Sorry, but that is a difference . Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam.

Edit:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Cute Wolf]

@Zett...
Nice hippeis model here...

BTW, these men comes cheap (Hippeis) compared than their Xyxtophoroi seniors, and they still could do some significant damage when charging from the back... and I found they can quickly dispatch enemy prodromoi.... But that's not surprisingly... Hippeis are just mediocre cavalry, but not bad yet...

@ All
Sorry if I have a bad english.... please forgive me...

[IrishHitman]

For one, my grammar and vocabulary is impeccable. Anyone who knows me can attest to this, especially if they are from the EB Tavern. Secondly, I am asexual, so that crosses out the second option as well.

Care to explain why you're asexual?
Not participating in the most basic of social activities is a CRIME, DAMN IT!

[Aemilius Paulus]

Care to explain why you're asexual?
Not participating in the most basic of social activities is a CRIME, DAMN IT!

How about you ask that on my Profile, through a Visitor Message, OK ? I would not like to derail this long-standing thread

[Cute Wolf]

just back to topic, ok?

And how did u supposed to defeat this stack with this stack...
You (Ptolemaioi)
1x Somatophylakes Strategou
4x Machimoi
1x Sphendonetai
2x Machimoi Hippeis

Enemy (Arche Seleukeia)
7x Pantodapoi Phalangitai
2x Gund-i Palta
2x Asiatikoi Hippakontistai

(If I replace "Machimoi" with "Hoplitai Haploi" I will surely win...)

[athanaric]

just back to topic, ok?

And how did u supposed to defeat this stack with this stack...
You (Ptolemaioi)
1x Somatophylakes Strategou
4x Machimoi
1x Sphendonetai
2x Machimoi Hippeis

Enemy (Arche Seleukeia)
7x Pantodapoi Phalangitai
2x Gund-i Palta
2x Asiatikoi Hippakontistai

(If I replace "Machimoi" with "Hoplitai Haploi" I will surely win...)

Actually, I think that's very much possible, given your cavalry superiority. The key to winning such an engagement is to draw the enemy units away from their main force one by one. Try to kill the enemy cavalry first (with the slingers etc.) without losing too much of your own cavalry. Then you can focus on the skirmishers (one of your infantry units plus the cavalry should be able to rout them. The rest is just defeating the phalanx units one by one the Arabian way, which involves a lot of running, kiting, baiting, shooting and flanking. Your General will eventually be able to deliver the "killing blow".

Btw. I once managed to defeat a group of 2 Machimoi Phalangitai and 1 Machimoi unit(s) with only 1 unit of Arabian light cavalry and 1 unit of Sabaean Citizen Cavalry.

[Ca Putt]

I didn't test it yet but from the looks of it I'd simply say you don't combine Macimoi with Sphendotai and machimoi Hippeis. I'd rather combine them with Hoplitai haploi:

Machimoi are not lineholders but line breakers. the suggested army has stready battle line that can hold while the machimoi or machimoi hippeis charge in from the flank/back

edit: oh the arabian way, sorry I always do it the KH way :D.

[HansDuet]

Alright. After significant amount of Carthagin'...

Surprisingly Bad:



Only pikemen you get, I guess they are alright but they are supposed to be elite, which they are not since they seem to be pretty much par with much cheaper Clerouchoi. They'll hold the line alright but against Hellenic pikemen they'll lose.



The famed Numidian cavalry? Alright, they are cheap but still they should have something to live up their reputation. I tried to use them against Roman heavy infantry, but their javelins barely scratched them. Equites Caetratii do the job of light cavalry better.



Okay, another famed unit. Maybe I didn't use them right (flank and charge) but they seem to be just Caetratii with greater price. Or are they just really expensive skirmishers?


Surprisingly Good units:



I know, they are elite, they are supposed to be good but these guys are better than good. Heavy armor, elite, spear and ap axe as backup? Extremely versatile battle winners. My elite army consisted mostly of these guys and they defeated Roman and Gaelic infantry. In the end that army was gold chevroned Sacred Band cav and Silver chevroned these guys. Couple of Numidian archers.



Very good cavalry. Do their job almost as well as Sacred Band cavalry, with lower price. Pretty much conquered Iberia by spamming these from Gader.
They last long in melee and were extremely effective against Lusotani light infantry and cavalry.



Very good archers. And guess what is their melee weapon? Ap-mace. Tells everything.

[option]

After a healthy dosage of Pontic rule, I think I'm well-versed enough to do one of these...

Surprisingly Good:



LOVE these guys. Great flanking troops, and the AP axe eats Seleukid bodyguards for breakfast.



Wrong chariots, but the Pontic ones aren't on the website. I've heard endless complaints about these guys, and while they ARE expensive and somewhat fragile, they're devastating if used correctly. They shred cavalry (in one of my recent battles, they destroyed two units of Kinsman heavy cav while taking 8 casualties), destroy formations and have a very nice moral effect. Similar to elephants in that they require proper use to be any good at all, but I make sure to include a unit or two in all my full stacks now.



Considering the majority of the Pontic factional infantry are terrible, I've been abusing these guys lately. They can hold their own against just about anything, and can even pin phalanxes in place if need be, and the Pontic variant have insanely cool shields. I've got Ankyra pumping out a steady stream of them.

Surprisingly Bad:



What are these guys good for? Incredibly expensive, far too fragile in melee and poor stamina. Asian light cav is much better for less money.



If you thought any moron could be given a sarissa and 240 comrades and be expected to hold a battle line reasonably well, think again. Every time I have these guys facing off against even Klerouchoi Phalangitai, they seem to get inexplicably shredded. Awful.



I figured with a name like 'elite' they might be good. I was wrong.

[Marcus Ulpius]

@ Option:

Pantodapoi Phalangitai are not supposed to be better than Cleruchoi Phalangitai. The former are native levies armed in Hellenic style. The later are Hellenic immigrants and professional soldiers of the Diadochi.

[option]

I'm well aware of that, I'm just saying that they're terrible and much worse than similar units that are only marginally more expensive.

[Maion Maroneios]

I must disagree on the Pantodapoi Phalangitai as well. They are supposed to be just a bunch of guys with minimal training, given a sarissa and an axe, as well as some minor equipment. They have bad morale, though that is to be expected from foreign levies serving a vast, multi-cultural Empire. Their axes are excellent, which makes them quite useful if you know how to use them.

Maion

[HopliteElite]

Pantodapoi Phalangitai surprisingly bad? AP axes, phalanx, 122 men on large, and only 330 upkeep? These guys are, if anything surpisingly good. These guys are levies and have always held their own very well in my campaigns against all but pezhetaroi or heavier phalanxes and those damned cats who steamroll just about anything.

[option]

Hmm, well I'm not a huge phalanx fan (nor am I all that skilled with them) so I may be misusing them, but they have yet to impress me. I never had problems using Phalangitai Deuteroi as Epeiros though, but the Pantodapoi always seem to take much higher casualties for some reason.

[Maion Maroneios]

Have you ever considered the fact that you might actually be facing deadlier enemies in the east? Lots of AP weapon-wielding units, lots of excellent archers and, of course, lots of deadly heavy cavalry.

Maion

[option]

Could be, but I've only fought the Seleukids thus far, and mostly low-mid level stacks at that. They were starting to go into Grey Death mode (doing things like destroying Pahlava and pushing deep enough to capture Chighu and Alexandreia), so I'll probably be fighting them exclusively for a while.