Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[Aemilius Paulus]

Machimoi Phalangitai have 1 less armour than the Pantodapoi or Deuteroi. Deuteroi have a linthorax, whereas Machmoi have a padded vest. Also, both the Panatadapoi and machmoi have a 5-attack axe. Ridiculous. I modded the axe attack to 7 in my EDU. Five is just too low. Deuteroi have 7 sword attack. Keep all that in mind when you boast of the AP attack of the Eastern Levy Phalangites.

[HansDuet]

Pantodopoi Phalangitai fills its role well. Its rather a surprisingly good unit.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Pantodopoi Phalangitai fills its role well. Its rather a surprisingly good unit.

I agree. In my current Eperios Campaign, the Levy Phalanxes rule the world. Levy Phalanxes are the best EB surprisingly good units, along with light under-hand spear cavalry. Levy Pikes can hold any non-pike/heavy cav unit at bay for almost infinite amount of time, especially in street battles, whether offensive or defensive. As a bonus, due to having 5 shield, a stat unequalled by any other non-pike unit, the phalangites are nearly impervious to frontal missile fire.

[Fierro]

I agree. In my current Eperios Campaign, the Levy Phalanxes rule the world. Levy Phalanxes are the best EB surprisingly good units, along with light under-hand spear cavalry. Levy Pikes can hold any non-pike/heavy cav unit at bay for almost infinite amount of time, especially in street battles, whether offensive or defensive. As a bonus, due to having 5 shield, a stat unequalled by any other non-pike unit, the phalangites are nearly impervious to frontal missile fire.

What? In my current AS campaign my levy pikes get mauled by pretty much any unit other than light skirmishers/very light cavalry.
Pretty depressing seeing a cavalry unit charge right into a wall of pikes not only surviving but kicking the phalanx' ass.
(medium difficulty btw)

I think I might just have terrible luck though.
People are always complaining of the AI doing stupid things and pretty much every battle being a breeze. For me the AI may still be retarded but everything that can go wrong usually does. Very frustrating at times.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I think I might just have terrible luck though..

That, and mostly inexperience with phalanxes. As there are tens of tricks and various things you can do with a phalanx. Such as for one, put one phalanx on top of another, for extra pike density. And BTW, this is actually historical, as I do remember one EB Team member defending my tactic when I mentioned it in one of the past threads.

The whole point of a levy phalanx is that it can hold any infantry unit, absolutely regardless of its quality. I have destroyed the most elite and experienced units with the static levy phalanx, which they ground against.

Just remember, there are important weaknesses of a phalanx. One is heavy cavalry. It will get through the pikes and smash it, although this heavily depends on the circumstance. Most of the time, my double phalanx will hold the cavalry at bay, and dispatch any lone riders that get through. There are exceptions though. Sometimes cavalry will break through, although much of the time, it will lose the fight, especially against the axe-armed levy phalangites.

Then you have the enemy phalanxes. An enemy phalanx is the other of the two great dangers to your levy phalanx. However, I have never yet been beaten by an enemy phalanx, despite fielding the Epriote Deuteroi Phalangitai. The reason for that is mostly because AI will attack at an angle, meaning that while their pikes are still reaching for my soldiers, my pikes are already grinding their blokes. In any case, a duel with an enemy phalanx will decimate yours, unless you bring other units in the fray.

After those two man dangers, you have the minor ones. One of them is enemy officers/generals. I mean the single officer soldier and the single general soldier, not the units their in. While the rest of the bodyguard is held by the pikes, a general will often get through and chop down your phalangites one by one. His hydra-like hitpoints and high weapon stats will decimate your phalanx.

Officers have a similar although less significant effect. They too have numerous hitpoints and powerful weapons, enabling them to break through alone and wreak havoc. I had a single Hastati officer break through my 3-experience pikes and kill 25 of them ALONE before his unit routed. Scary stuff. What I normally do is get another unit to move in the place where the officer/general is attacking, and let them kill him, as the phalangites' pikes take forever to kill something.



The final weaknesses of your phalanxes are flanking and not getting enough time to form up. You can, through prudence, protect yourself against both, but the latter one is the most crucial one, although the latter problem only arises in street battles. Remember that the phalangites, once they stop, have to have some time to form up, until the yellow arrows indicating movement are gone from their unit card. Alternatively, to make them do it faster, you can press "Backspace" numerous times. Only when they halt and finally rearrange, only then can you order them to form a phalanx. If ordered earlier, the phalangites will do their dreaded rearrangement move, where they all get into a circle and I am sure you ahve seen it before...

Last tip: when fighting in the phalanx mode, remember to continuously press "Backspace" for the soldiers to switch to pikes and to stop fighting (the red crassed-swords icon) as a pike phalanx only needs to stand still as the enemy sewers themselves onto the pikes. Otherwise, your phalangites will become tired.

[Fierro]

That, and mostly inexperience with phalanxes. As there are tens of tricks and various things you can do with a phalanx. Such as for one, put one phalanx on top of another, for extra pike density. And BTW, this is actually historical, as I do remember one EB Team member defending my tactic when I mentioned it in one of the past threads.

The whole point of a levy phalanx is that it can hold any infantry unit, absolutely regardless of its quality. I have destroyed the most elite and experienced units with the static levy phalanx, which they ground against.

Just remember, there are important weaknesses of a phalanx. One is heavy cavalry. It will get through the pikes and smash it, although this heavily depends on the circumstance. Most of the time, my double phalanx will hold the cavalry at bay, and dispatch any lone riders that get through. There are exceptions though. Sometimes cavalry will break through, although much of the time, it will lose the fight, especially against the axe-armed levy phalangites.

Then you have the enemy phalanxes. An enemy phalanx is the other of the two great dangers to your levy phalanx. However, I have never yet been beaten by an enemy phalanx, despite fielding the Epriote Deuteroi Phalangitai. The reason for that is mostly because AI will attack at an angle, meaning that while their pikes are still reaching for my soldiers, my pikes are already grinding their blokes. In any case, a duel with an enemy phalanx will decimate yours, unless you bring other units in the fray.

After those two man dangers, you have the minor ones. One of them is enemy officers/generals. I mean the single officer soldier and the single general soldier, not the units their in. While the rest of the bodyguard is held by the pikes, a general will often get through and chop down your phalangites one by one. His hydra-like hitpoints and high weapon stats will decimate your phalanx.

Officers have a similar although less significant effect. They too have numerous hitpoints and powerful weapons, enabling them to break through alone and wreak havoc. I had a single Hastati officer break through my 3-experience pikes and kill 25 of them ALONE before his unit routed. Scary stuff. What I normally do is get another unit to move in the place where the officer/general is attacking, and let them kill him, as the phalangites' pikes take forever to kill something.



The final weaknesses of your phalanxes are flanking and not getting enough time to form up. You can, through prudence, protect yourself against both, but the latter one is the most crucial one, although the latter problem only arises in street battles. Remember that the phalangites, once they stop, have to have some time to form up, until the yellow arrows indicating movement are gone from their unit card. Alternatively, to make them do it faster, you can press "Backspace" numerous times. Only when they halt and finally rearrange, only then can you order them to form a phalanx. If ordered earlier, the phalangites will do their dreaded rearrangement move, where they all get into a circle and I am sure you ahve seen it before...

Last tip: when fighting in the phalanx mode, remember to continuously press "Backspace" for the soldiers to switch to pikes and to stop fighting (the red crassed-swords icon) as a pike phalanx only needs to stand still as the enemy sewers themselves onto the pikes. Otherwise, your phalangites will become tired.

Thanks for the post.
I agree that one of my weaknesses might be not getting enough time to form up. City battles have a tendency of really making me want to break my keyboard in half! Why is it that the pathfinding is so screwed up? random spots will be inaccessible, formations will run into invisible obstacles and the entire formation will be broken. The city square makes absolutely no sense as sometimes units will run to a far corner corner when you only tell them to move 5 steps to the front. I've had phalanxes in the street sometimes do a full three rotations before finally being in formation, then there's always one or two slow guys that have to run to their spot and THEN do all the pikes finally come down adn the phalanx acts as a single unit but by then the enemy's swords are already covered in phalanx blood..

[HansDuet]

What? In my current AS campaign my levy pikes get mauled by pretty much any unit other than light skirmishers/very light cavalry.
Pretty depressing seeing a cavalry unit charge right into a wall of pikes not only surviving but kicking the phalanx' ass.
(medium difficulty btw)

Well they are levies, the crappiest of the crappiest and really not meant for beating anything in fair fight. However, they are cheap numbers and can make a difference by holding enemy still those seconds you need to maneuver your cavalry behind the enemy lines and... bang.

Very useful.

[A Very Super Market]

That would be against the point of a phalanx, or any other long speared weapon. Their main goal is to keep the enemy at bay, and leave the unit itself relatively safe. I don't know what difficulty you're playing on, but if your phalanxes last a few seconds before disintegrating, someting is wrong.

[K-Dogs]

Surprisingly Bad


I know these bad boys have been mentioned already, but i don't really agree with the guy who said they were amazing. Maybe I got caught up in the hype, "the people the romans couldn't conquer", or that that quote from Tacitus by the Caledonian leader, but trekking up into the highlands as the Casse on my first campaign, I was expecting something a bit cooler, or more numerous, when I got up into scotland.

They just seemed to drop like flies when I sent in Lugoae, maybe in greater numbers they would have been effective, or maybe a defense script for a nice chevroned army of them. I was playing on VH/H, and it was pretty anticlimactic.

Getting the message, 'you've united britain' or whatever was a bit strange after I just crushed their tiny army.
And they're no use once you invade the continent because the AOR is so bloody far away from anywhere else.

[Watchman]

Machimoi Phalangitai have 1 less armour than the Pantodapoi or Deuteroi. Deuteroi have a linthorax, whereas Machmoi have a padded vest. Also, both the Panatadapoi and machmoi have a 5-attack axe. Ridiculous. I modded the axe attack to 7 in my EDU. Five is just too low. Deuteroi have 7 sword attack. Keep all that in mind when you boast of the AP attack of the Eastern Levy Phalangites.

Yeah well. Axes and maces take -1 to base attack value (to offset the AP and fairly high lethality), xiphos-type mid-sized swords give +1... see where that goes ?

Anyway, I've personally found the Panty pikes quite useful. But then again I don't even try to use them for "push of pike", but pin enemy pikes in place for flankers to destroy. Deep "box" formations and guardmode does well there.

As for the Pontic thorakitai, is that with or without the +2 to defskill (making it 11) recommended as a fix to make them viable ? (Goes for the closely related Hai armoured swordsmen too, incidentally.) The kit design is kinda bad, granted.

[Marcus Ulpius]

All phalanx units are surprisingly good simply because the AI has absolutely no clue how to fight them. The only thing that can trouble your army of levy phalanxes is the army of better phalanxes, but even then if you have some support troops you can still win the battle. With Macedonia I conquered Greece and kicked the AS out of western Asia Minor with levy phalanx armies.

[Apázlinemjó]

As for the Pontic thorakitai, is that with or without the +2 to defskill (making it 11) recommended as a fix to make them viable ? (Goes for the closely related Hai armoured swordsmen too, incidentally.) The kit design is kinda bad, granted.

Without +2 defskill, although I don't think it would change the situation that much.

[Watchman]

Without +2 defskill, although I don't think it would change the situation that much.

Of course it does. The units are *all about* their stats.

[Apázlinemjó]

Of course it does. The units are *all about* their stats.

But +2 def skill? I don't think it's enough then, I'd played some custom battles, comparing these guys to other units, like Post Marians, Thracian Peltastai, German Swordsmen and such, and well...they lost, badly.

[Watchman]

Their problem is that they're too lightly armoured and shielded for their tactical role; slightly lighter than eg. Marian legionaries, though they are of superior skill level, and noticeably lighter than the common Thorakitai of the same quality level. Compare:

;504
type             eastern infantry pontic thorakitai
dictionary       eastern_infantry_pontic_thorakitai      ; Pontic Thorakitai
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy_1
soldier          eastern_infantry_mardig_georgian_swordsmen_pontic_thorakitai_parthohellenikoi_thureophoroi, 40, 0, 1.15, 0.25
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation        1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         6, 4, javelin, 35, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec         12, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  9, 9, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental      13, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1813, 453, 196, 374, 1813
ownership        carthage

;241
type             roman infantry legionary cohort i
dictionary       roman_infantry_legionary_cohort_i      ; Cohortes Reformata
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          roman_infantry_cohorsreformata, 50, 0, 1.18, 0.25
officer          ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer          ebofficer_roman_early_standard
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation        1, 2, 2, 3, 5, square, testudo
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec         11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  10, 8, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, 0, -2, -2
stat_mental      14, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1790, 448, 100, 160, 1790
ownership        seleucid, slave

;177
type             greek infantry thorakitai
dictionary       greek_infantry_thorakitai      ; Thorakitai
category         infantry
class            spearmen
voice_type       Female_1
soldier          carthaginian_infantry_lybianspearmen_thorakitai_scortamavera, 40, 0, 1.18, 0.25
officer          ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer          ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
mount_effect     elephant -1
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap
formation        1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         6, 6, javelin, 35, 3, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec         15, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    light_spear
stat_pri_armour  12, 9, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        5
stat_ground      0, 0, -2, -3
stat_mental      13, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1910, 478, 40, 60, 1910
ownership        romans_brutii, romans_julii, greek_cities, numidia, thrace

21 to 22 or 24 totals; the +2 ought to RATHER help bridge the gap. (Ditto for the virtually identical Armenian heavy swordsmen, natch.)
On the plus side, they're faster moving than the other two and "hardy", unlike the usual Thoras.

[Maion Maroneios]

Indeed, they have better stamina. I've found them to be quite a pain in the rear, actually. They were able to keep their own against my pikemen for a long time, plus they gave my Thureophoroi and Peltastai a nasty surprise.

Maion